Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 03:15:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu ([136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01KMMQJ8EU3G004TBJ@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 03:15:56 EDT Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 02:54:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 02:54:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 1cust145.tnt2.santa-fe.nm.da.uu.net ([67.235.45.145] helo=mahshev) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17rYtw-00023J-00 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 00:05:33 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 01:05:31 -0600 From: Mordechai Subject: Re: W-EMED Non-USA "duty to act" laws sought Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <000e01c25ee1$c883d250$912deb43@mahshev> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C25EAF.7C4E4FF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk References: <95.22d929ea.2ab942c9@aol.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C25EAF.7C4E4FF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jay, I don't recall the particulars of the law, but I remember being told as = a (army) medic in Israel, that we were legally obliged to render aid if = we found ourselves at an accident scene. Any other Israeli list members = know the details? mordechai Mordechai Y. Scher Combat Medic 09 (IDF), NREMT-P Atalaya Search and Rescue Pecos Valley Ambulance Service, San Miguel County, NM Moriarty Fire Rescue, Moriarty, Torrance County, NM myscheremtp@earthlink.net ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JadedMedic@aol.com=20 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu=20 Sent: Tuesday, 17 September, 2002 8:45 PM Subject: W-EMED Non-USA "duty to act" laws sought Hi folks, I'm doing some legal research for law school on the issue of "duty to = act" and if memory serves, while in the good old USA there is no general = duty to act on the part of ordinary citizens in the absence of any prior = special relationship, in some other countries there is such a duty to = act. I would greatly appreciate any information that could be provided, = particularly a specific reference to the applicable law in the = particular country. Many thanks, Jay=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C25EAF.7C4E4FF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jay,

I don't recall the particulars of the = law, but I=20 remember being told as a (army) medic in Israel, that we were legally = obliged to=20 render aid if we found ourselves at an accident scene. Any other = Israeli=20 list members know the details?

mordechai

Mordechai Y. Scher
Combat Medic 09 = (IDF),=20 NREMT-P

Atalaya Search and Rescue
Pecos = Valley Ambulance=20 Service, San Miguel County, NM

Moriarty Fire Rescue, Moriarty, = Torrance County,=20 NM

myscheremtp@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 JadedMedic@aol.com

To: wilderness-em= ergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu=20

Sent: Tuesday, 17 September, = 2002 8:45=20 PM

Subject: W-EMED Non-USA "duty = to act"=20 laws sought

Hi=20 folks,

I'm doing some legal research for law school on the = issue of=20 "duty to act" and if memory serves, while in the good old USA there is = no=20 general duty to act on the part of ordinary citizens in the absence of = any=20 prior special relationship, in some other countries there is such a = duty to=20 act.

I would greatly appreciate any information that could be = provided,=20 particularly a specific reference to the applicable law in the = particular=20 country.

Many thanks,

Jay=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C25EAF.7C4E4FF0-- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. 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spf11.us4.outblaze.com Received-From-MTA: DNS; 205-158-62-41.outblaze.com Arrival-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 04:16:24 GMT Final-Recipient: RFC822; kprice@mail-com.usa.com Action: failed Status: 5.2.2 Remote-MTA: DNS; mta1.us4.outblaze.com Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 552 recipient storage full, try again later Last-Attempt-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 04:16:25 GMT --g8I4GPrg006020.1032322585/spf11.us4.outblaze.com Content-Type: text/rfc822-headers Return-Path: Received: from spf7.us4.outblaze.com (205-158-62-41.outblaze.com [205.158.62.41]) by spf11.us4.outblaze.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g8I4GOrg006015 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 04:16:24 GMT Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (list.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.20]) by spf7.us4.outblaze.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g8I4GNa44210 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 04:16:24 GMT Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:35:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d07.mx.aol.com (imo-d07.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.39]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:35:18 -0400 (EDT) From: JadedMedic@aol.com Received: from JadedMedic@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.10.) id h.95.22d929ea (3842) for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:45:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <95.22d929ea.2ab942c9@aol.com> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:45:29 EDT Subject: W-EMED Non-USA "duty to act" laws sought To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_95.22d929ea.2ab942c9_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10637 Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu --g8I4GPrg006020.1032322585/spf11.us4.outblaze.com-- -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:47:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu ([136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01KLD4ROEZO6000SU1@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:47:10 EDT Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:31:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m5.boston.juno.com (m5.boston.juno.com [64.136.24.68]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:31:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"Pvq3N2to5PBLPXgf67ELJxyKDDEdS2Q2L7QOyC0vH+kNmu7AHRgHYg=="> Received: (from ray_waugh@juno.com) by m5.boston.juno.com (jqueuemail) id HACJDDXY; Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:36:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:35:38 -0700 From: ray_waugh@juno.com Subject: W-EMED Killing Giardia Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <20020816.083539.2828.0.ray_waugh@juno.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,4-9 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 What is the latest and best thinking about killing Giardia by boiling water? The question is related to the preparation of freeze dried foods with boiling water while on long backpack trips. For drinking water, filters and/or iodine seem to work well. Raymond W. Waugh ----------------------------------- ray_waugh@juno.com ----------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:44:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu ([136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01KLBI0W2OI0002303@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:44:51 EDT Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:31:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-d10.mx.aol.com (imo-d10.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.42]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:31:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Caverbru@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id q.12d.15c0b03b (15886); Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aol.com (mow-m03.webmail.aol.com [64.12.184.131]) by air-id08.mx.aol.com (v87.22) with ESMTP id MAILINID81-0815073633; Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:36:33 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:36:33 -0400 From: Caverbru@aol.com Subject: W-EMED Re: [erncrc] erik's looking for a confined space simulator Fwd: [CaveDiggers] Squeeze Box Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: ndh@lightlink.com, erncrc@yahoogroups.com, NCRC@ontosystems.com, wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <61858744.054F8D15.006DDA1E@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Precedence: bulk Well hopefully someone else will pick up on this since I'm in Austalia at the moment, in fact the Australian cave rescue folks are already looking for pictures of their squeeze box. I know Pittsburgh Grotto has one and so do some of the cavers who do the Crawlathon at Carter Caves Kentucky. Sorry I'll OTR. Y'll have fun, Bru Randall Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.161]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:29:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu ([136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01KL95N5WK3Y000HSJ@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:29:23 EDT Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:12:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ux9.isu.edu (ux9.isu.edu [134.50.250.46]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:12:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from isu.edu ([134.50.237.223]) by ux9.isu.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id H0SQXF00.DF7 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:17:39 -0600 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:17:20 -0600 From: Curt Anderson Subject: Re: W-EMED Re: High tech/ low tech PolarWraps Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <3D595B40.5628A37A@isu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win98; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk References: <1891F9DCBFB9D511890D00508BAF85CC1813B0@078divts-emh2.78divex.usarc.army.mil> Chuck, great comment and here's another....For nearly 15 years now I've run sleddogs during the winter and have struggled with the sweat/warmth problem. For my face, I finally stumbled on a solution I like (don't give me credit for it; I'm sure I stole the idea from somewhere). I have a big 'bomber' cap that can be folded down over the ears and has velcro sewn on the front for my headlamp to attach. Along the sides of each ear flap I sewed a strip of polar fleece. I usually carry 3-4 pieces of polar fleece with me that velcro to each side and cover my face. When one gets too icy or too wet, I can pull it off, toss it in the sledbad and put on another. Works great and is real easy to regulate warmth. If it gets REAL cold, I have a very thin polypro balaclava that can fit under the whole works. I've never needed more. The added advantage is that it's very inexpensive and doesn't require fancy duds (and yes, I've dealt with hypothermia before and won't scrimp on quality). cheers, Curt > Just a quick comment on balaclavas. I spent 4 years with the Army in Alaska > in Artillery/Airborne Infantry units. The Army issued us two poly pro > balaclavas with a wind shield sandwiched between the poly pro exterior. We > would wear one while moving and it would get all iced up and then switch to > the other (DRY OR DRYER) one when stopped. Worked great and I do not go out > in the woods Fall-Spring without one in my pack. I also keep a thinner poly > pro balaclava in my cave pack. > > Chuck Chapman Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:20:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu ([136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01KL8WY8UQ9W001UUZ@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:20:13 EDT Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:57:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from usarc-fw2.usar.army.mil (usarc-fw2.army.mil [160.136.109.6]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:57:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from arnetbridge1.usarc.army.mil ([55.125.1.251]) by usarc-fw2.usar.army.mil with ESMTP id g7DF27BW005691 for ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:02:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by arnetbridge1.usarc.army.mil with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:52:38 -0400 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:03:07 -0400 From: "Chapman, Charles (HQ 78th Div RCI Contr)" Subject: RE: W-EMED Re: High tech/ low tech PolarWraps Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: "'wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu'" Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <1891F9DCBFB9D511890D00508BAF85CC1813B0@078divts-emh2.78divex.usarc.army.mil> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Precedence: bulk Just a quick comment on balaclavas. I spent 4 years with the Army in Alaska in Artillery/Airborne Infantry units. The Army issued us two poly pro balaclavas with a wind shield sandwiched between the poly pro exterior. We would wear one while moving and it would get all iced up and then switch to the other (DRY OR DRYER) one when stopped. Worked great and I do not go out in the woods Fall-Spring without one in my pack. I also keep a thinner poly pro balaclava in my cave pack. Chuck Chapman -----Original Message----- From: Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP [mailto:kconover@pitt.edu] Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 8:50 PM To: Andrew Jenkins; mra@altadena.net; erncrc@egroups.com; NCRC@ontosystems.com; amrg@list.pitt.edu; wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Cc: Bill Davis; Rengstorf, William J; Loui McCurley (Clem) Subject: W-EMED Re: High tech/ low tech PolarWraps I've received a number of replies to this post, with some excellent comments; these are reproduced below, with permission of the authors. Loui even invited me to speak on this at NATRS (whoops, that's now the INTERNATIONAL technical rescue symposium) -- Loui, I'm flattered and honored, but I've already committed to teaching a Wilderness EMT/Wilderness Command Physician course at Glenmore Lodge in Scotland's Cairngorms this November, so much as I would love to be there, I'll have to pass. A few additional comments. I remember one trip (our honeymoon) in the Adirondaks at the end of May/beginning of June. We did the Great Range Trail (nice traverse, mostly hiking and third-class, just a few places that were fourth- class). Luckily the weather was cold and the black flies stayed away until the last day. However, there were 14 inches of new snow the first day, even down at the base of the peaks, so it was a wee bit chillier than usual, even for the Adirondaks. So we were wearing our balaclavas most of the time (yes this was back in the days of wool balaclavas - you know, they still are better in many ways than many other "modern" hats but it's hard to find wool balaclavas these days, and those you can find have a lot of elastic so they're squeezing your head all the time. Hmph). And to keep warm in our three-season bags at night, we simply turned them around so we were breathing through the back of the balaclava all night. Helped a lot (except that when you turned the balaclava around in the morning, there was a cold, icy patch on the back of your neck -- but then that did help us get up and going.) So I've always been a fan of this technique for keeping warmer. But the Polarwrap devices seem superior for a couple of reasons (you'd think they'd trumpet this on their webpage, but they don't). 1. The copper serves as an excellent place to condense (and sometimes freeze) water vapor. 2. The large, relatively open bulk of the copper mesh allows easy inhalation and exhalation with minimally increasing work of breathing. 3. The "ports" on the inside and outside of the mask are offset, so your inhalation and exhalation goes through the bulk of the copper mesh. 4. The copper mesh isn't significantly more heavy or bulky, compared to other face masks. I will say that the one I got seems to have one problem: I suspect a lot of exhalation will come up past the nose and fog up your goggles. I think I will insert a piece of soft wire (maybe lead solder, I used that in my balaclava) along the top of the mask -- this allows you to form it to fit over your nose and cheeks and to minimize fogging of your goggles. The smaller "sport" version does have a little bit of wire over the nose, although not quite as long as I'd like; not sure why the bigger version doesn't have that. Also, the smaller version has a relatively thin (2") strip that goes around the back of the head, so this would be a lot easier to put on someone immobilized in a c-collar and vaccuum mattress or padded backboard, so I'd recommend this version for patient care. The "sedentary" model has more copper mesh and would probably be better for rescue use. I am trying to think of ways to test this for use in mountain/cave rescue. I can't yet think of any reasonable experimental study given the scant numbers of patients we have, and the difficulty of getting enough with enough good controls to achieve any sort of statistical power. But the studies posted on the polarwrap site, regarding decreasing cardiovascular work in the cold, suggest to me that this would make a good addition to any wilderness rescue kit. It's not as good as warm, inspired oxygen, but it's a lot lighter, cheaper and easier to use. These studies looked at people who were exercising in the cold, and trauma/illness provide stress responses similar to exercise. I don't think I would use this on someone who was warm and in serious respiratory distress. An example would be someone with a serious chest injury, or severe air hunger, as in shock with metabolic acidosis or severe asthma. But for hypothermic patients, or those in a cold environment with orthopedic injuries of the lower extremities (very, very common if you look at the statistics) it sounds ideal. Don't know about discounts, but please give me a few weeks, and I'll see if I can swing something with them for MRA/NCRC purchases. Take care. On 7 Aug 2002 at 9:43, Andrew Jenkins wrote: > > You raise a good point that many outdoors-folks may not be aware > of--the heat loss from respiration. Watch a dog sleep in the cold and > he'll instinctively snuggle his muzzle into his tail to breathe the > warmed air. Eskimos picked up on this a thousand years ago and > invented the wolverine ruff that encircles the hood of the > traditional parka. > > I haven't tried the Polar Wrap but I often use an oversized fleece > neck gator/baclava that I can scrunch up around my "muzzle" and > breathe warm air that funnels up from my chest. It's a great deal > for regulating heat while on the move because you can pull it over > your head like a hood or a facemask or scrunch it down as a neck gator > as conditions change. Cabelas sells 'em in their fall/winter > catalogs. > > I know some of the "old dogs" among us will recall this one: Back in > the olden days of the 60-70's we used to whack off the toeof an old > wool boot sock, attach a piece of elastic band (usually salvaged from > an old pair of underpants), and pull it over our mouth & nose at > bedtime. The warmed air really made a big difference in our winter > sleep in our inadequate capok filled army surplus sleeping bags. > Somebody named it a "Heat Snorkel" :) I shoulda got a patent on that > one! (and yes, we usually washed the sock and underpants first) > > Andy J :{) > On 5 Aug 2002 at 8:59, Bill Davis wrote: > > > And, then there is the 'snorkel' that Ome Daiber came up with. A cut > > off leg of wool long underwear that was held on to head, over mouth > > and nose, to breath through, making one look like an elephant with > > trunk, but breathing thru it. The opening let ice particles drop out > > bottom, if exercising. I've used mine a few times on 'bivies', and > > it works !. > > > > Sounds exactly like Ome talking in their product brochure (that > > www.polarwrap.com). But, ? cooper mesh ? Unless they're trying to > > get some metal to hold heat ? Snowmobilers have had neoprene face > > shields that are almost the same, without extra bulk. > > > > bill davis, Seattle Mountain Rescue > > > > > From: "Rengstorf, William J" > > > Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 07:14:17 -0700 To: "'kconover@pitt.edu'" > > > Cc: "Caley Doug (E-mail)" > > > , "Errington, Allan > > > R", "Prothman, Greg > > > (E-mail)", "Davis Bill- home (E-mail)" > > > Subject: RE: [Mra] www.polarwrap.com: > > > hypothermia treatment/stabilization device? > > > > > > Hi Keith- > > > > > > I think you're onto something helpful. > > > FYI- > > > I and suspect others have used this principle, given much less > > > scientific, for years as way to help stay comfortable in a > > > sleeping bag during chilly overnights. I simply drape a light wool > > > shirt over the opening of my sleeping bag that covers my head, > > > neck, shoulders and upper chest area. This provides a light damper > > > to reduce cold air entering the bag opening and an air pre-warmer > > > of inhaled air as my exhale has already pre-warmed the shirt. I > > > assume a synthetic shirt would perform the same task. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Bill Rengstorf > > > Seattle Mountain Rescue > On 2 Aug 2002 at 16:41, NCRC Discussion List wrote: > > > > > **************************************************************** > > ** ** * NOTICE! * * The > > following information cannot be published without the * * > > expressed consent of the author. > > * > > **************************************************************** > > ** ** > > > > > > > > On 2 Aug 2002 at 16:41, Heazlit, Cindy (cindy.heazlit@lmco.com) > > wrote: > > > > Well, I've been pulling a balclava over my nose/mouth for years! No > > surprise. I've also tried those neoprene face masks for skiing when > > it is 30 below. I am less happy with those. You end up with water > > vapor that collects over your mouth area. This either causes > > chapping or it freezes. Yuck. > > > > Keith - since it is still summer I'm going to assume that you > > haven't tried it out under real conditions. I'd be interested in > > what you find in field test. > > > > I think that you raise an important point though - that it is > > important to keep the face warm. I know that when I survey in > > really cold caves (29-34 deg F) that the cold can be psychologically > > intimidating. It really does feel like the cave is trying to suck > > the life out of your body. The air is also very dry (no moisture > > due to freezing). A patient with a warm face has got to be happier > > than one sucking down that cold air. This piece of equipment is > > small enough to bring along anytime, so it gets bonus points in my > > book! It is expensive though - are they willing to give discounts? > > > > Cindy > > > > > > > > --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover sent with Pegasus high-security email download free from www.pmail.com Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i1.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.185.162]) by imap.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisimap-7.2.2.4) ID ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:56:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu ([136.142.185.20]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01KL82SM6G3A001XX5@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:56:42 EDT Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:45:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from out013.verizon.net (out013pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.44]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cisls-7.2.2.2) ID ; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:45:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Micron ([141.158.126.164]) by out013.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.09 201-253-122-126-109-20020611) with ESMTP id <20020813004950.PFMH8671.out013.verizon.net@Micron>; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:49:50 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:49:47 -0400 From: "Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP" Subject: W-EMED Re: High tech/ low tech PolarWraps In-reply-to: Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu To: Andrew Jenkins , mra@altadena.net, erncrc@egroups.com, NCRC@ontosystems.com, amrg@list.pitt.edu, wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Cc: Bill Davis , "Rengstorf, William J" , "Loui McCurley (Clem)" Reply-to: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <3D581F6B.10467.11C0580@localhost> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-description: Mail message body Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Precedence: bulk I've received a number of replies to this post, with some excellent comments; these are reproduced below, with permission of the authors. Loui even invited me to speak on this at NATRS (whoops, that's now the INTERNATIONAL technical rescue symposium) -- Loui, I'm flattered and honored, but I've already committed to teaching a Wilderness EMT/Wilderness Command Physician course at Glenmore Lodge in Scotland's Cairngorms this November, so much as I would love to be there, I'll have to pass. A few additional comments. I remember one trip (our honeymoon) in the Adirondaks at the end of May/beginning of June. We did the Great Range Trail (nice traverse, mostly hiking and third-class, just a few places that were fourth- class). Luckily the weather was cold and the black flies stayed away until the last day. However, there were 14 inches of new snow the first day, even down at the base of the peaks, so it was a wee bit chillier than usual, even for the Adirondaks. So we were wearing our balaclavas most of the time (yes this was back in the days of wool balaclavas - you know, they still are better in many ways than many other "modern" hats but it's hard to find wool balaclavas these days, and those you can find have a lot of elastic so they're squeezing your head all the time. Hmph). And to keep warm in our three-season bags at night, we simply turned them around so we were breathing through the back of the balaclava all night. Helped a lot (except that when you turned the balaclava around in the morning, there was a cold, icy patch on the back of your neck -- but then that did help us get up and going.) So I've always been a fan of this technique for keeping warmer. But the Polarwrap devices seem superior for a couple of reasons (you'd think they'd trumpet this on their webpage, but they don't). 1. The copper serves as an excellent place to condense (and sometimes freeze) water vapor. 2. The large, relatively open bulk of the copper mesh allows easy inhalation and exhalation with minimally increasing work of breathing. 3. The "ports" on the inside and outside of the mask are offset, so your inhalation and exhalation goes through the bulk of the copper mesh. 4. The copper mesh isn't significantly more heavy or bulky, compared to other face masks. I will say that the one I got seems to have one problem: I suspect a lot of exhalation will come up past the nose and fog up your goggles. I think I will insert a piece of soft wire (maybe lead solder, I used that in my balaclava) along the top of the mask -- this allows you to form it to fit over your nose and cheeks and to minimize fogging of your goggles. The smaller "sport" version does have a little bit of wire over the nose, although not quite as long as I'd like; not sure why the bigger version doesn't have that. Also, the smaller version has a relatively thin (2") strip that goes around the back of the head, so this would be a lot easier to put on someone immobilized in a c-collar and vaccuum mattress or padded backboard, so I'd recommend this version for patient care. The "sedentary" model has more copper mesh and would probably be better for rescue use. I am trying to think of ways to test this for use in mountain/cave rescue. I can't yet think of any reasonable experimental study given the scant numbers of patients we have, and the difficulty of getting enough with enough good controls to achieve any sort of statistical power. But the studies posted on the polarwrap site, regarding decreasing cardiovascular work in the cold, suggest to me that this would make a good addition to any wilderness rescue kit. It's not as good as warm, inspired oxygen, but it's a lot lighter, cheaper and easier to use. These studies looked at people who were exercising in the cold, and trauma/illness provide stress responses similar to exercise. I don't think I would use this on someone who was warm and in serious respiratory distress. An example would be someone with a serious chest injury, or severe air hunger, as in shock with metabolic acidosis or severe asthma. But for hypothermic patients, or those in a cold environment with orthopedic injuries of the lower extremities (very, very common if you look at the statistics) it sounds ideal. Don't know about discounts, but please give me a few weeks, and I'll see if I can swing something with them for MRA/NCRC purchases. Take care. On 7 Aug 2002 at 9:43, Andrew Jenkins wrote: > > You raise a good point that many outdoors-folks may not be aware > of--the heat loss from respiration. Watch a dog sleep in the cold and > he'll instinctively snuggle his muzzle into his tail to breathe the > warmed air. Eskimos picked up on this a thousand years ago and > invented the wolverine ruff that encircles the hood of the > traditional parka. > > I haven't tried the Polar Wrap but I often use an oversized fleece > neck gator/baclava that I can scrunch up around my "muzzle" and > breathe warm air that funnels up from my chest. It's a great deal > for regulating heat while on the move because you can pull it over > your head like a hood or a facemask or scrunch it down as a neck gator > as conditions change. Cabelas sells 'em in their fall/winter > catalogs. > > I know some of the "old dogs" among us will recall this one: Back in > the olden days of the 60-70's we used to whack off the toeof an old > wool boot sock, attach a piece of elastic band (usually salvaged from > an old pair of underpants), and pull it over our mouth & nose at > bedtime. The warmed air really made a big difference in our winter > sleep in our inadequate capok filled army surplus sleeping bags. > Somebody named it a "Heat Snorkel" :) I shoulda got a patent on that > one! (and yes, we usually washed the sock and underpants first) > > Andy J :{) > On 5 Aug 2002 at 8:59, Bill Davis wrote: > > > And, then there is the 'snorkel' that Ome Daiber came up with. A cut > > off leg of wool long underwear that was held on to head, over mouth > > and nose, to breath through, making one look like an elephant with > > trunk, but breathing thru it. The opening let ice particles drop out > > bottom, if exercising. I've used mine a few times on 'bivies', and > > it works !. > > > > Sounds exactly like Ome talking in their product brochure (that > > www.polarwrap.com). But, ? cooper mesh ? Unless they're trying to > > get some metal to hold heat ? Snowmobilers have had neoprene face > > shields that are almost the same, without extra bulk. > > > > bill davis, Seattle Mountain Rescue > > > > > From: "Rengstorf, William J" > > > Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 07:14:17 -0700 To: "'kconover@pitt.edu'" > > > Cc: "Caley Doug (E-mail)" > > > , "Errington, Allan > > > R", "Prothman, Greg > > > (E-mail)", "Davis Bill- home (E-mail)" > > > Subject: RE: [Mra] www.polarwrap.com: > > > hypothermia treatment/stabilization device? > > > > > > Hi Keith- > > > > > > I think you're onto something helpful. > > > FYI- > > > I and suspect others have used this principle, given much less > > > scientific, for years as way to help stay comfortable in a > > > sleeping bag during chilly overnights. I simply drape a light wool > > > shirt over the opening of my sleeping bag that covers my head, > > > neck, shoulders and upper chest area. This provides a light damper > > > to reduce cold air entering the bag opening and an air pre-warmer > > > of inhaled air as my exhale has already pre-warmed the shirt. I > > > assume a synthetic shirt would perform the same task. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Bill Rengstorf > > > Seattle Mountain Rescue > On 2 Aug 2002 at 16:41, NCRC Discussion List wrote: > > > > > **************************************************************** > > ** ** * NOTICE! * * The > > following information cannot be published without the * * > > expressed consent of the author. > > * > > **************************************************************** > > ** ** > > > > > > > > On 2 Aug 2002 at 16:41, Heazlit, Cindy (cindy.heazlit@lmco.com) > > wrote: > > > > Well, I've been pulling a balclava over my nose/mouth for years! No > > surprise. I've also tried those neoprene face masks for skiing when > > it is 30 below. I am less happy with those. You end up with water > > vapor that collects over your mouth area. This either causes > > chapping or it freezes. Yuck. > > > > Keith - since it is still summer I'm going to assume that you > > haven't tried it out under real conditions. I'd be interested in > > what you find in field test. > > > > I think that you raise an important point though - that it is > > important to keep the face warm. I know that when I survey in > > really cold caves (29-34 deg F) that the cold can be psychologically > > intimidating. It really does feel like the cave is trying to suck > > the life out of your body. The air is also very dry (no moisture > > due to freezing). A patient with a warm face has got to be happier > > than one sucking down that cold air. This piece of equipment is > > small enough to bring along anytime, so it gets bonus points in my > > book! It is expensive though - are they willing to give discounts? > > > > Cindy > > > > > > > > --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover sent with Pegasus high-security email download free from www.pmail.com Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End --