Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:06:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:04:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rmi.net (rainbow.rmii.com [166.93.8.14]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:00:51 -0400 (EDT) From: btilton@rmi.net Received: from 166.93.10.55 (slip1055.rmii.com [166.93.10.55]) by rmi.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA21454 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:00:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <343215DA.A6F@rmi.net> Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 09:20:26 +0000 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED Re: NOLS wilderness medic course References: <199709302218.SAA00961@post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: bb5749a65471040d8555ab0063c4e867 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 RE: Wilderness Medic. In more than 12 years of teaching wilderness medicine full time, I have never heard of a "wilderness medic" course, or even a wilderness medic. My association with NOLS dates back even more than 12 years, and I have never known the term in relation to NOLS either. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:29:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:29:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:29:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:28:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:27:51 -0400 (EDT) From: MikeValora@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA26267 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:27:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:27:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971002212534_-628941803@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED Re: NOLS wilderness medic course Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: ca48284f86c852f9f6382320c0ecb877 X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 By some stretch of her mind could she have been thinking of the wilderness module that is offered by SOLO and WMA for certified EMTs. This is a four/five day course designed to teach all of the "wilderness protocols and what if's". Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:03:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:02:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:01:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.97]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:01:03 -0400 (EDT) From: RSSHANDLER@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA23604 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:00:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:00:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971003080032_-1027464904@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: W-EMED Wilderness First Aid Course Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 23cf848b560dbae896b53a2f676290e4 X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 The Philadelphia Canoe Club is hosting a 2 day wilderness first aid course taught by Wilderness Medical Associates. Conveniently located 15 minutes from Philadelphia, the course will be held on October 25 & 26. The fee is $100. For further information please call 215/625-2386 or e-mail rsshandler@aol.com Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 06:20:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 06:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 06:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 06:05:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 06:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 06:03:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Caverbru@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id GAA07742 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 06:02:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 06:02:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971007060258_1857599680@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED Re: NOLS wilderness medic course Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 28ba7d7b76fb59cf41a36010cd6a1ebb X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 I don't think so because she said she was not an EMT and that being certified as an EMT/Paramedic was not a requirement. I'm trying to get a name to persue this more. I also don't think that she took the course "out west" but rather in the East. Thanks for the comments and I'll keep you all posted as more info surfaces. Bru Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:03:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:02:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:00:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:59:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lanshark.lanminds.com (lanshark.lanminds.com [140.174.208.11]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:59:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.1.127.124] (ppp4.lanminds.com [208.1.127.124]) by lanshark.lanminds.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA13656 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:58:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tmcguire@pop.lanminds.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: TMcGuire@LanMinds.Com (Thomas J. McGuire) Subject: W-EMED Univ Houston drowning study/Heimlich? Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 77278acdb48a15a11d6e1010b972af64 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Does anyone have info re a recent study affirming use of Heimlich maneuver in drowning victims? Was apparently referred to in "Fisherman" magazine, Oct/Nov 97 p.10. Thanks, Tom ***************************************** Thomas J. McGuire (TMcGuire@LanMinds.com) Chabot College Paramedic Program Berkeley Fire Department (California) ***************************************** Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:22:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:21:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.10]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:21:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emed.upmc.edu (pphled03.dwing.upmc.edu [128.147.175.164]) by post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispo-2.0.1.7) ID for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:17:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from EMERG_MED/SpoolDir by emed.upmc.edu (Mercury 1.21); 7 Oct 97 15:21:25 -0500 Received: from SpoolDir by EMERG_MED (Mercury 1.30); 7 Oct 97 15:21:13 -0500 Received: from pmp4em34.mckee.upmc.edu by emed.upmc.edu (Mercury 1.30); 7 Oct 97 15:21:05 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971007151654.0069ed10@emed.upmc.edu> X-Sender: grandey@emed.upmc.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 15:17:43 -0400 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: "Jack T. Grandey" Subject: Re: W-EMED Univ Houston drowning study/Heimlich? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 5d2eecbdae709593b707a5be8a02bb2c X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Yes. It's been quoted many places, including JEMS, a few months back. I feel compelled to point out that it was not conducted from any medical or physiological perspective. Unfortunately, it has been picked up & run with, by many, absent any critical scientific review. If you can't find it, let me know. JTG At 10:58 10/7/97 -0700, you wrote: >Does anyone have info re a recent study affirming use of Heimlich maneuver >in drowning victims? > >Was apparently referred to in "Fisherman" magazine, Oct/Nov 97 p.10. > >Thanks, > >Tom > >***************************************** >Thomas J. McGuire (TMcGuire@LanMinds.com) >Chabot College Paramedic Program >Berkeley Fire Department (California) >***************************************** > > >Do not reproduce without author's express permission. >To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" >as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu >Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu > Jack T. Grandey, NREMT-P Director, Division of Applied Informatics Operations Director Department of Emergency Medicine Wilderness EMS Institute University of Pittsburgh Medical Center http://www.wemsi.org/ http://www.upmc.edu/ Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 01:44:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 01:44:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 01:44:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 01:43:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 01:41:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 01:41:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Bighoss19@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id BAA24021 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 01:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 01:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971008014118_1343615181@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED Univ Houston drowning study/Heimlich? Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 65b03f13aa6196d0f0fe2caf87a19959 X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 The instructor (Bill Kane) at Solo told us about a study done at the Univ. of Houston (TX) where (roughly) 24 out 27 persons who where not breathing coming out of the water were "brought back" using the Heimlich with any futher intervention. The other ponit was that when you vent a drowning victim you are actually pushing water into the lungs. NOTE - the ARC CPR gudielines still go! For now more studies are being done - Austraila - has been doing a version of the Heimlich w/ the PT on his/her belly and lifting up - I doubt this will take hold in the US - This info is fresh I JUST got back from my WEMT RECERT. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:21:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:19:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ctral1.Vanderbilt.Edu (ctral1.Vanderbilt.Edu [129.59.1.22]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 02:19:40 -0400 (EDT) From: DURKINTJ@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu Received: from ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu by ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #24212) id <01IOJNYGG83K9BZSRI@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu> for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 01:18:16 CDT Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 01:18:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: W-EMED Univ Houston drowning study/Heimlich? To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <01IOJNYGGBV69BZSRI@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu> X-VMS-To: IN%"wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: e2862cbec26cffaee30070f418359308 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Recent ( past 15+ years ) articles in most medical and related journals are availible to be researched by the public on the internet on a server maintained at the national library of medicine at NIH in Bethesda, MD. The primary search engine (medline) url is : www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/medline.html alternate search engine (grateful med) igm.nlm.nih.gov hope this is helpful. Tim Durkin Davidson County (TN) Rescue Squad Vanderbilt Emergency Medical Society Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:28:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:28:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:27:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:26:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rmi.net (rainbow.rmii.com [166.93.8.14]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:26:31 -0400 (EDT) From: btilton@rmi.net Received: from 166.93.10.66 (slip1066.rmii.com [166.93.10.66]) by rmi.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA07027 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 06:26:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <343B2C44.457C@rmi.net> Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 06:46:28 +0000 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED Univ Houston drowning study/Heimlich? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 20635a4be970f6f2f98ce817ffe6cd67 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Mention was made of the Univ of Houston study of the Heimlich in drownings in the September/October 1997 issue of Ocean Navigator. Anecdotal info from Los Angeles lifeguards is included in the article. You might contact the Heimlich Institute for more info: 513-221-0002. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:04:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:03:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:02:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lanshark.lanminds.com (lanshark.lanminds.com [140.174.208.11]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:02:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.1.127.124] (ppp4.lanminds.com [208.1.127.124]) by lanshark.lanminds.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA22001 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:01:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: tmcguire@pop.lanminds.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: TMcGuire@LanMinds.Com (Thomas J. McGuire) Subject: Re: W-EMED Univ Houston drowning study/Heimlich? Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 4a928efc0070bf30ba5046cd912a7158 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 At 6.46 8.10.97, btilton@rmi.net wrote: >Mention was made of the Univ of Houston study of the Heimlich in >drownings in the September/October 1997 issue of Ocean Navigator... "Ocean Navigator!" an old favorite, which has/d pretty authoritative medical advice as I recall. Interesting how this "Houston" study has been so widely quoted, yet apparently not published in a peer reviewed journal. MEDLINE supplies an early Heimlich apology for his maneuver in drowning (2) and a more recent critique by Peter Rosen (1). Regards, Tom "luff is a four-letter word" (1) J Emerg Med 1995 May;13(3):397-405 The use of the Heimlich maneuver in near drowning: Institute of Medicine report. Rosen P, Stoto M, Harley J Department of Emergency Medicine, San Diego Medical Center, University of California, USA. The application of the Heimlich maneuver as the initial and perhaps only step for opening the airway in all near-drowning victims has been proposed by Henry Heimlich and Edward Patrick, contrary to current resuscitation guidelines for the treatment of near-drowning victims established by the Emergency Cardiac Care (ECC) Committee of the American Heart Association. Although the Heimlich maneuver is useful for the removal of aspirated solid foreign bodies, there is no evidence that death from drowning is frequently caused by aspiration of a solid foreign body that is not effectively treated by the current ECC recommendations. Furthermore, the evidence is insufficient to support the proposition that the Heimlich maneuver is useful for the removal of aspirated liquid. Moreover, because there is no evidence to support Heimlich's hypothesis that substantial amounts of water are aspirated by near-drowning victims or that such aspirated liquid causes brain damage and death, the available evidence does not support routine use of the Heimlich maneuver in the care of near-drowning victims. The routine use of the Heimlich maneuver for treatment of near drowning raises several concerns: (a) the amount of time it would take to repeat this maneuver and how long this would delay the initiation of artificial ventilation; (b) possible complications of the Heimlich maneuver, especially if the near drowning is associated with a cervical fracture; and (c) the prospect of teaching rescue workers a different protocol than that which is taught at present for resuscitating victims of cardiopulmonary arrest from all causes other than near drowning. (2) Postgrad Med 1988 Aug;84(2):62-67 Using the Heimlich maneuver to save near-drowning victims. Heimlich HJ, Patrick EA Xavier University, Cincinnati. Flooding of the lungs occurs routinely in drowning victims. The cause of death in 90% of them is hypoxemia caused by water in the lungs. Mouth-to-mouth ventilation is ineffective until the water is removed. The Heimlich maneuver expels aspirated water, vomitus, debris, and other foreign matter. In treating near-drowning victims, place the victim in the supine position with head turned to the side and perform the Heimlich maneuver to evacuate water from the lungs, unless you know water is not in the respiratory tract. The Heimlich maneuver is a form of artificial respiration. It elevates the diaphragm, increasing intrathoracic pressure and compressing the lungs, and should be performed intermittently until all water is expelled. It is an especially useful technique because fear of contagion sometimes deters rescuers from using mouth-to-mouth ventilation . Further treatment has not been necessary in most instances. If the victim does not recover after water ceases to flow from the mouth, ventilation techniques, cardiopulmonary resuscitation, and other measures as indicated should be used. ***************************************** Thomas J. McGuire (TMcGuire@LanMinds.com) Chabot College Paramedic Program Berkeley Fire Department (California) ***************************************** Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:39:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:39:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:39:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:37:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:37:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webcube.vegasnet.net (webcube.vegasnet.net [208.136.108.1]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:37:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from daves-home ([208.147.126.144]) by webcube.vegasnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA07427 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:44:42 -0700 Message-ID: <343BC6B5.51720723@vegasnet.net> Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 10:45:25 -0700 From: David Lehman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED Univ Houston drowning study/Heimlich? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 15f917ef2e0e4d75082096603e294e6d X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 According to the AHA ACLS guidelines, the Heimlich maneuver is not indicated in the drowning victim. The reason cited is that the chance of secondary aspiration of gastric contents. As we know, fluids are rapidly absorbed by the lungs. Most drowning / near-drowning victims have only a small amount of water in the lungs anyways. Laryngospasm at the time of submersion limits the amount of water to a minimal amount in many cases. Proper ventilation using the appropriate adjuncts ( OPA, BVM, ET tube, etc.) is the most important consideration. This is my opinion, but treat the airway much the way you would treat somebody with acute pulminary edema. Meaning positive pressure ventilation ( except when possible barotrauma exists such as scuba drownings) . Hope this helps, David Lehman, MICP Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:20:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:19:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:19:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:19:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:17:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from harborside.com (exim@harborside.com [204.214.110.225]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cme-connection [204.214.112.4] by harborside.com with smtp (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0xJ5M1-0000tF-00; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:17:21 -0700 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Don Marr" Organization: CME Conection To: TMcGuire@LanMinds.Com (Thomas J. McGuire), wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:21:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: W-EMED Univ Houston drowning study/Heimlich? In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Message-Id: Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 5e5a6007cebb4bdae7ca488060675bf3 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 > Does anyone have info re a recent study affirming use of Heimlich maneuver > in drowning victims? > > Was apparently referred to in "Fisherman" magazine, Oct/Nov 97 p.10. > Here is the info I got to the same question from the person that posted to the EMERG-L about the same article in "In Fisherman" magazine: Send reply to: From: "Kenneth A. Turner" To: "Don Marr" Subject: Re: University of Houston study on drowning Date sent: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:16:20 -0700 Don, I don't have any info on the study other than the article but maybe their ftp or gopher server (at U Houston) will help. If not, make a call. They would be more than glad to aid the prehospital community. But be sure to let your medical director in on it before you squeeze any bellies. Ken Turner www.hom.net/~katurner/emergncy.htm MS, BLS-C, CFR Donald Marr EMT-P Training Officer Bay Cities Ambulance PO Box 575 Coos Bay, OR 97420 KC7FZI donmarr@harborside.com ******************************************* My oppinions are mine and not those of the agencies or people who hired me, thinking I might change to fit their mold. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:19:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:18:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:18:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:17:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.goodnet.com (mail.goodnet.com [207.98.129.2]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from PC_.goodnet.com (phx-ts19-8.goodnet.com [207.98.133.73]) by mail.goodnet.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA19589 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:15:30 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <343005B0.6B65@earthlink.net> References: Conversation <343005B0.6B65@earthlink.net> with last message <343005B0.6B65@earthlink.net> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "WEMS News" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Tim Kovacs" Subject: W-EMED Fw: Olympic Park Accident --NTSB prelim report Date: Thu, 09 Oct 97 18:29:30 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: d6de0e289bbdc1d1126b16ade3dc692f X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 ---------- > Date: Monday, September 29, 1997 12:46:56 > From: Gus Bush > To: mra@altadena.net > Subject: Olympic Park Accident --NTSB prelim report > > Here is the web page containing the Official Prelim report from the > NTSB > > http://www.ntsb.gov/Aviation/LAX/97A325.htm > > Here are the contents > > NTSB Identification: LAX97GA325 > > Accident occurred SEP-12-97 at SEQUIM, WA > > Aircraft: Bell 205A-1, > > registration: N90HJ > > Injuries: 3 Fatal, 5 Serious. > > On September 12, 1997, about 1630 hours Pacific daylight time, a Bell > 205A-1, N90HJ, was destroyed during a collision with mountainous > terrain in the takeoff initial climb near Sequim, Washington. The > helicopter was operated by the National Park Service as a public-use > aircraft. The pilot and two passengers received fatal injuries, five > passengers received serious injuries. The flight originated on the day > of the accident as part of an on-going search for a lost hiker in the > Buckhorn Wilderness Area of the Olympic National Forest. Instrument > meteorological conditions with visibility's less than 1/4 mile > prevailed > at the departure point. The pilot had flown up from Eugene, Oregon, > for the search effort and had no prior experience in the Olympic > National Forest. The accident flight was his second mission in the > area > and the first landing at this landing zone. According to ground and > passenger witness interviews, the takeoff was vertical into fog and a > very low ceiling. > Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:31:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:31:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:30:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:30:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.goodnet.com (mail.goodnet.com [207.98.129.2]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:30:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from PC_.goodnet.com (phx-ns43-8.goodnet.com [207.204.254.73]) by mail.goodnet.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA22026 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:27:53 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "WEMS News" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Tim Kovacs" Subject: W-EMED Fw: Kong Bonaiti Carabiner fracture Date: Thu, 09 Oct 97 18:29:54 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 1a2713af0aaafdc17020f08ab2a03c7d X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 ---------- > Date: Thursday, October 02, 1997 21:38:45 > From: Tim Kovacs > To: mra officers > Subject: Kong Bonaiti Carabiner fracture > > Two carabiner failures and two other incidents from the IKAR (International > Commission for Alpine Rescue) in the Italian Alps this past week. This > information is very new, so few details are available, but it is worthy of > mention - to keep you safe. > 1. Last week, Bruno Jelk of the Bavarian Bergwacht came to the IKAR with > an interesting account. He was practicing Cable car (ski lift) rescue > helicopter winching. They had completed 5 evolutions of hooking "victims" > to the helicopter winch and removing them from the stranded cable car, 150 > meters from the ground. Bruno then hooked himself to the winch end with a > Helicopter Cache Kong Bonaiti CE 474 (29 kN/9kN/9kN). As he put one foot > out of the cable car and was holding with one hand at the door's edge and > the winch brought him taut, the carabiner fractured. The safety officer > inside the cable car pulled him back into the car, asnd there was no > further incident. The gate and head of the carabiner were lost in the snow > and terrain below, but the rest was recovered. The carabiner had no known > previous damage, and had been bought new two years ago. He says it was not > side loaded and the gate had been shut. There is not at this time suspicion > of shock loading. I insped\cted the carabiner in Italy last week and it > appears to have been a rupture/fracture, not a slow pull. It also does not > appear to me to be a shock load. They are planning further tests on the > carabiner, and it only occurred last Friday, just before Bruno came to the > IKAR. A Kong rep conatcted by Bruno said they suspect it had most likely > been made unsafe by being previously dropped or hit against something. > There is strong suspicion of intrinsic fault of the carabiner itself. The > Bergwacht has immediately suspended use of this model carabiner until > further notice, as have several other European mountain rescue teams. They > also seem now to be serious about using 2 points of connection for even > personal loads (the most important kind, don't you think? Bruno is now a > believer). Some of my helicopter friends suggest this as definitive proof > of the superiority of steel carabiners and that if steel was used, this > would not have occurred. I will give more details of this incident and the > follow up in my report of the IKAR conference. Meanwhile we suggest you > suspend any use of these until further notice from Kong or a reliable > source. > 2. There was a second carabiner failure reported. In June in Zermatt > during equipment testing, a large aluminum carabiner had inadvertently been > placed relatively equi-distantly at a 90 degree rock edge for a hand or > power winching operation. Under something near a rescue load, the carabiner > fractured at about the half point. This sounds clearly like poor placement > and poor edge equipment management, but still can happen. Again, more > details as I learn them. > 3. I have a third incident to give you, although there are more. The > Slovenians were practicing helicopter ops in July, when they had 7 rescuers > on a mountain and a safety line/tether tied around a gendarme-type > prominence on their ledge. they were 150 m above ground. The 212 had 2 > pilots, 2 winchmen and 1 trainer. The attendant and "victim" were hooked to > the winch. As the winch was raised, the ship also pulled power vertically > and went to the side. Apparently, a knot in the tether got caught in some > part of the litter. As the ship gained altitude, the 5 rescuers still on > the tether were lifted along with the litter, attendant and victim. The > tether lifted off of the prominence. The tether finally came loose from > whatever it was hooked to on the litter and the 5 rescuers connected to it > fell to there deaths. The ship, crew and "victim" and attendant were > spared. Initial impressions from their people; Limit the equipment the > rescuers have attached to their harnesses and elsewhere, to limit the > potential for gear hanging up. Use a safety officer or don't forget to > always check whether anythings hooked to something it shouldn't be. Have > excellent communication with the pilot/crew. > 4. REGA (Swiss Air Rescue) had a double fatality in late August > involving a HELICOPTER RESCUE WINCH (new generation Breeze Eastern). They > had winched a physician down to a female victim in the Swiss Alps area. The > physician did the standard packaging job. The two were being hoisted into > the K2 Agusta when the winch stopped at about 9 meters from the ship. The > pilot carefully began to fly low and slow down a valley to a spot where he > could set the pair down (less than 2 minutes). Within 100 feet of final, > the cable broke and the two fell about 30 feet, killing the victim and the > physician. The winch apparently had wound the cable onto itself instead of > eploying evenly onto the spool barrell, and when the cable had wound over > itself so thickly, it jammed the winch. It then cut the cable. This > apparently also occurred some months before in Italy with another rescue > service and with the same generation of Breeze winch, but was unknown to > other rescue agenices at the time. > > Stay safe, > Tim Kovacs, Mountain Rescue Association; NASAR and your IKAR Rep. > P.S.; If you know of anyone else who should be informed of these types of > incidents, please send me their name, email address, and team name, so I > can add them in next time. > Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- X-cs: From: Self To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu,asrc@list.pitt.edu Subject: WEMSI Wilderness EMT Course Guide now available Cc: EMED List ,sar-l@islandnet.com Reply-to: kconover+@pitt.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:24:05 The first full official release of the Wilderness EMS Institute's Wilderness EMT Course Guide is now available at http://www.wemsi.org The Guide comes as one main part and three large appendices. The Course Guide is in Adobe Acrobat 3.0 format. The WEMSI Web Page provides a link for downloading the free Adobe Acrobat Reader for all platforms. Plug-in viewers for Netscape Navigator and Internet Explorer are also available. This is version 2.0; version 1.0 was an official release but was incomplete. We expect to release a version 2.1 with a small amount of additional information sometime this winter. Suggestions for improvement (and proofreading comments!) are always welcome, please address them to: "Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP" (note: you cannot obtain printed copies from me, please use the address below) Printed copies of the Guide and all its appendices are available for $10 postpaid (make checks payable to Center for Emergency Medicine) from this address: 230 McKee Place, Suite 500 Pittsburgh, PA 15213-4904 412-578-3203 wemsi+@pitt.edu Thank you for your interest in Wilderness EMS. -- End -- Return-Path: sar-l-request@islandnet.com Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (daemon@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:42:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID for kconover@pop.pitt.edu; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:42:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail for kconover+@pitt.edu; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [198.53.172.12]) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:38:55 -0400 (EDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:38:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail.islandnet.com id m0xKnOM-0006ccC for kconover+@pitt.edu; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: Message-Id: <199710131624.MAA27616@post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Keith Conover, M.D." To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu, asrc@list.pitt.edu Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:24:13 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: WEMSI Wilderness EMT Course Guide now available Reply-to: kconover+@pitt.edu CC: EMED List , sar-l@islandnet.com Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Resent-Message-ID: <"g9ZHw.0.XX6.toaGq"@mail> Resent-From: sar-l@islandnet.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4649 X-Loop: sar-l@islandnet.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: sar-l-request@islandnet.com X-UIDL: aa92645230379c69181884f608fee443 The first full official release of the Wilderness EMS Institute's Wilderness EMT Course Guide is now available at http://www.wemsi.org The Guide comes as one main part and three large appendices. The Course Guide is in Adobe Acrobat 3.0 format. The WEMSI Web Page provides a link for downloading the free Adobe Acrobat Reader for all platforms. Plug-in viewers for Netscape Navigator and Internet Explorer are also available. This is version 2.0; version 1.0 was an official release but was incomplete. We expect to release a version 2.1 with a small amount of additional information sometime this winter. Suggestions for improvement (and proofreading comments!) are always welcome, please address them to: "Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP" (note: you cannot obtain printed copies from me, please use the address below) Printed copies of the Guide and all its appendices are available for $10 postpaid (make checks payable to Center for Emergency Medicine) from this address: 230 McKee Place, Suite 500 Pittsburgh, PA 15213-4904 412-578-3203 wemsi+@pitt.edu Thank you for your interest in Wilderness EMS. --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover ========================================================================== SAR-L Search and Rescue discussion list. For unsubscribe information-email to sar-l-request@islandnet.com with the word 'help' in the subject field. ========================================================================== -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:33:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:32:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:32:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:32:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:27:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aus-b.mp.campus.mci.net (aus-b.mp.campus.mci.net [208.140.84.22]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:26:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lizard (s15-pm34.snaustel.campus.mci.net [207.49.122.58]) by aus-b.mp.campus.mci.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA07651; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:35:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:35:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710160235.WAA07651@aus-b.mp.campus.mci.net> X-Sender: mbryant@wku.campus.mci.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: MArt371256@aol.com, ozcavers@gospel.iinet.net.au, cavers@ditell.com, tindallc@mindspring.com, ewbryant@tva.gov, smoky@logantele.com, rgalviniii@logantele.com, sar-l@islandnet.com, wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu, sar-dogs@apple.ease.lsoft.com, jkary@WKU.CAMPUS.MCI.NET From: mbryant@WKU.CAMPUS.MCI.NET (Mike Bryant) Subject: W-EMED The coolest chain letter Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: f0ff7eec09516b87bc5c97ae76230d2a >> > > HOLD THE DOWN ARROW AND KEEP GOING!!! >> > >> >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi peopl e >> > >> hi peopl e >> > >> hi peopl e >> > >> hi peopl e >> > >> hi peop l e >> > >> hi peop l e >> > >> hi peop l e >> > >> hi peop l e >> > >> hi peo p l e >> > >> hi peo p l e >> > >> hi peo p l e >> > >> hi peo p l e >> > >> hi pe o p l e >> > >> hi pe o p l e >> > >> hi pe o p l e >> > >> hi pe o p l e >> > >> hi p e o p l e >> > >> hi p e o p l e >> > >> hi p e o p l e >> > >> hi p e o p l e >> > >> hi p e o p l e >> > >> hi p e o p l e >> > >> hi p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p le >> > >> h i p e o p le >> > >> h i p e o p le >> > >> h i p e o p le >> > >> h i p e o ple >> > >> h i p e o ple >> > >> h i p e o ple >> > >> h i p e o ple >> > >> h i p e ople >> > >> h i p e ople >> > >> h i p e ople >> > >> h i p e ople >> > >> h i p eople >> > >> h i p eople >> > >> h i p eople >> > >> h i p eople >> > >> h i people >> > >> h i people >> > >> h i people >> > >> h i people >> > >> h i people >> > >> h i people >> > >> h i people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi peopl e >> > >> hi peopl e >> > >> hi peopl e >> > >> hi peopl e >> > >> hi peop l e >> > >> hi peop l e >> > >> hi peop l e >> > >> hi peop l e >> > >> hi peo p l e >> > >> hi peo p l e >> > >> hi peo p l e >> > >> hi peo p l e >> > >> hi pe o p l e >> > >> hi pe o p l e >> > >> hi pe o p l e >> > >> hi pe o p l e >> > >> hi p e o p l e >> > >> hi p e o p l e >> > >> hi p e o p l e >> > >> hi p e o p l e >> > >> hi p e o p l e >> > >> hi p e o p l e >> > >> hi p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p l e >> > >> h i p e o p le >> > >> h i p e o p le >> > >> h i p e o p le >> > >> h i p e o p le >> > >> h i p e o ple >> > >> h i p e o ple >> > >> h i p e o ple >> > >> h i p e o ple >> > >> h i p e ople >> > >> h i p e ople >> > >> h i p e ople >> > >> h i p e ople >> > >> h i p eople >> > >> h i p eople >> > >> h i p eople >> > >> h i p eople >> > >> h i people >> > >> h i people >> > >> h i people >> > >> h i people >> > >> h i people >> > >> h i people >> > >> h i people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi p e ople >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> hi people >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> a int this kool >> > >> a int this kool >> > >> a int this kool >> > >> a int this kool >> > >> a i nt this kool >> > >> a i nt this kool >> > >> a i nt this kool >> > >> ai nt this kool >> > >> ai n t this kool >> > >> ai n t this kool >> > >> ai n t this kool >> > >> ain t this kool >> > >> ain t this kool >> > >> ain t this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint t his kool >> > >> aint t his kool >> > >> aint t his kool >> > >> aint t h is kool >> > >> aint t h is kool >> > >> aint t h is kool >> > >> aint th i s kool >> > >> aint th i s kool >> > >> aint th i s kool >> > >> aint thi s kool >> > >> aint thi s kool >> > >> aint thi s kool >> > >> aint this k ool >> > >> aint this k ool >> > >> aint this k ool >> > >> aint this k o ol >> > >> aint this k o ol >> > >> aint this k o ol >> > >> aint this ko o l >> > >> aint this ko o l >> > >> aint this ko o l >> > >> aint this koo l >> > >> aint this koo l >> > >> aint this koo l >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> aint this kool >> > >> >> > >> STOP SCROLLING " With talent on loan from God" Mike Bryant Vicepresident, BRASDA PIO, TRACER Scanner/Senior Member, CAP PSD, DR1, Nitrox Diver, NREMT-B Analyical Chemist (paying job !), Hyperbaric Med Tech (part-time) mbryant@wku.campus.mci.net or mike.bryant@wku.edu Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:49:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:48:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:46:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:46:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Forsythe.Stanford.EDU (forsythe.Stanford.EDU [36.54.0.16]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:46:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710161946.PAA00287@list.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 12:45:18 PDT From: "Robert Norris" To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: W-EMED Photo request Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 2a456fe9b349580d361801c2b3d37fdb X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 Hello all, I have written a few chapters for the new online emergency medicine text that was advertised recently on this list. I am in need of some photos for my chapters and wondered if anyone was willing to offer up some (for photo credit in the chapter)? I need photos of: - large centipede (preferrably giant desert centipede) - puss caterpillar - gila monster Any photos of clinical cases would also be helpful. Thanks! Bob Norris Chief, Emergency Medicine Stanford University email: bob.norris@forsythe.stanford.edu To: WILDERNESS-EMERGENCY-MEDICINE@LIST.PITT.EDU Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:22:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:21:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:20:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:19:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from catios.udea.edu.co (sparra@catios.udea.edu.co [200.24.18.20]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:15:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (sparra@localhost) by catios.udea.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA08554 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:12:01 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:12:01 -0500 (EST) From: "Sergio Parra." To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED The coolest chain letter In-Reply-To: <199710160235.WAA07651@aus-b.mp.campus.mci.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: fe4a5a9507d02974c9604eaa1a8f781a X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Hola: No nos hagas perder el tiempo! Gracias Sergio Parra. On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Mike Bryant wrote: > > >> > > HOLD THE DOWN ARROW AND KEEP GOING!!! > >> > >> > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi peopl e > >> > >> hi peopl e > >> > >> hi peopl e > >> > >> hi peopl e > >> > >> hi peop l e > >> > >> hi peop l e > >> > >> hi peop l e > >> > >> hi peop l e > >> > >> hi peo p l e > >> > >> hi peo p l e > >> > >> hi peo p l e > >> > >> hi peo p l e > >> > >> hi pe o p l e > >> > >> hi pe o p l e > >> > >> hi pe o p l e > >> > >> hi pe o p l e > >> > >> hi p e o p l e > >> > >> hi p e o p l e > >> > >> hi p e o p l e > >> > >> hi p e o p l e > >> > >> hi p e o p l e > >> > >> hi p e o p l e > >> > >> hi p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p le > >> > >> h i p e o p le > >> > >> h i p e o p le > >> > >> h i p e o p le > >> > >> h i p e o ple > >> > >> h i p e o ple > >> > >> h i p e o ple > >> > >> h i p e o ple > >> > >> h i p e ople > >> > >> h i p e ople > >> > >> h i p e ople > >> > >> h i p e ople > >> > >> h i p eople > >> > >> h i p eople > >> > >> h i p eople > >> > >> h i p eople > >> > >> h i people > >> > >> h i people > >> > >> h i people > >> > >> h i people > >> > >> h i people > >> > >> h i people > >> > >> h i people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi peopl e > >> > >> hi peopl e > >> > >> hi peopl e > >> > >> hi peopl e > >> > >> hi peop l e > >> > >> hi peop l e > >> > >> hi peop l e > >> > >> hi peop l e > >> > >> hi peo p l e > >> > >> hi peo p l e > >> > >> hi peo p l e > >> > >> hi peo p l e > >> > >> hi pe o p l e > >> > >> hi pe o p l e > >> > >> hi pe o p l e > >> > >> hi pe o p l e > >> > >> hi p e o p l e > >> > >> hi p e o p l e > >> > >> hi p e o p l e > >> > >> hi p e o p l e > >> > >> hi p e o p l e > >> > >> hi p e o p l e > >> > >> hi p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p l e > >> > >> h i p e o p le > >> > >> h i p e o p le > >> > >> h i p e o p le > >> > >> h i p e o p le > >> > >> h i p e o ple > >> > >> h i p e o ple > >> > >> h i p e o ple > >> > >> h i p e o ple > >> > >> h i p e ople > >> > >> h i p e ople > >> > >> h i p e ople > >> > >> h i p e ople > >> > >> h i p eople > >> > >> h i p eople > >> > >> h i p eople > >> > >> h i p eople > >> > >> h i people > >> > >> h i people > >> > >> h i people > >> > >> h i people > >> > >> h i people > >> > >> h i people > >> > >> h i people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi p e ople > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> hi people > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> a int this kool > >> > >> a int this kool > >> > >> a int this kool > >> > >> a int this kool > >> > >> a i nt this kool > >> > >> a i nt this kool > >> > >> a i nt this kool > >> > >> ai nt this kool > >> > >> ai n t this kool > >> > >> ai n t this kool > >> > >> ai n t this kool > >> > >> ain t this kool > >> > >> ain t this kool > >> > >> ain t this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint t his kool > >> > >> aint t his kool > >> > >> aint t his kool > >> > >> aint t h is kool > >> > >> aint t h is kool > >> > >> aint t h is kool > >> > >> aint th i s kool > >> > >> aint th i s kool > >> > >> aint th i s kool > >> > >> aint thi s kool > >> > >> aint thi s kool > >> > >> aint thi s kool > >> > >> aint this k ool > >> > >> aint this k ool > >> > >> aint this k ool > >> > >> aint this k o ol > >> > >> aint this k o ol > >> > >> aint this k o ol > >> > >> aint this ko o l > >> > >> aint this ko o l > >> > >> aint this ko o l > >> > >> aint this koo l > >> > >> aint this koo l > >> > >> aint this koo l > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> aint this kool > >> > >> > >> > >> STOP SCROLLING > " With talent on loan from God" > > Mike Bryant Vicepresident, BRASDA > PIO, TRACER Scanner/Senior Member, CAP > PSD, DR1, Nitrox Diver, NREMT-B Analyical Chemist (paying job !), > Hyperbaric Med Tech (part-time) > mbryant@wku.campus.mci.net or mike.bryant@wku.edu > > Do not reproduce without author's express permission. > To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" > as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu > Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu > Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:59:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:58:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:58:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:56:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:56:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ctral1.Vanderbilt.Edu (ctral1.Vanderbilt.Edu [129.59.1.22]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:56:26 -0400 (EDT) From: DURKINTJ@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu Received: from ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu by ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #24212) id <01IOVEIIAJSG9EDCDD@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu> for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:53:22 CDT Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:53:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: W-EMED The coolest chain letter To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Message-id: <01IOVEIIAOIA9EDCDD@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu> X-VMS-To: IN%"wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 673728f0236daa1e59ae140a9ca42bfe X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Spam. Spam bad. No Spam, please. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:09:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:06:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:04:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net (mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.34]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [12.70.73.42] by mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA5780 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:02:26 +0000 X-Sender: splantz@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: splantz@worldnet.att.net (Scott H. Plantz, M.D.) Subject: W-EMED Re: EMERGENCY PICTURES Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:02:26 +0000 Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: b2615ea1be171b3c61b8acb844fdd82d X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Dear Wilderness List, Our new online emergency medicine text is now up and running. It can be found at www.emedicine.com We really need your help and support in improving the pictorial images of the text. If you have pictures your are willing to donate, please contact the staff or load them online. The pictues will be distributed for academic teaching purposes by display in the online text. Thanks. shp Scott H. Plantz, M.D., FAAEM Asst. Prof. and Research Director Dept. of Emergency Medicine Mt. Sinai Medical Center Suite 746, 800 S. Wells Chicago, IL 60607 Ph. 813-367-7763 Fx. 813-367-7764 Em. splantz@worldnet.att.net Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:48:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:48:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:48:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:46:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:44:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout20.mail.aol.com (emout20.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.46]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:44:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Bighoss19@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout20.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA19067 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:43:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:43:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971016134147_-1797501854@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: W-EMED WEMT in Mass. Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 68983fb2f5da6e009e2da25b5ee0a0c4 X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 Here's a winner - in 1994 I took SOLO's WEMT class (add on), When I put in for the CEU's I got a rather blunt letter from OEMS that in basiclly said I could wind up just short of going to jail if I were to use any of the proceedures, that did not follow already established regional protocols (soon to be statewide) which inc. nothing regarding long term field care. The Comm of Mass seems to think that here is no woods in the state, but as I sit here in 550 + ac. I find it hard to take. Anyone with any help other than who to write (I have already done that & so has Solo) to change this please let me know. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:07:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:07:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:06:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:06:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Bighoss19@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA13066 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971016150459_323057704@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED Re: EMERGENCY PICTURES Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: a6cea85009cf230f80a331f25a9f4e08 X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 Check out The Sceamer's Home page for simulated injury photos http://members.aol.com/mayhempro/ Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:15:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:13:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:13:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:11:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:09:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ecentral.com (ns.ecentral.com [206.64.70.1]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Default (ppp148.ecentral.com [206.64.70.148]) by www.ecentral.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA25192 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:09:08 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:09:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710162309.RAA25192@www.ecentral.com> X-Sender: hmpaul@ecentral.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: "Howard M. Paul" Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMT in Mass. Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: f0aadcdae330342a0d311b465b919572 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 It is very common that established protocols (especially regional or statewide) do not recognize procedures taught in W-EMS courses. And, protocol systems vary from state to state. In Colorado, for example, protocols derive from the local physician advisor exclusively, and can cover a singular service agency, a county or a multi-county region -- all depending on the size of the local EMS "system." We have no statewide protocols (and likely never will). My agency is a mountain rescue team based in the foothills west of Denver. We work in the "real" mountains -- up to 14,264'. However, our physician advisor is in metropolitan Denver. The Denver Metropolitan-Wide protocols -- with which he directs his EMS agencies -- are for the urban environment. We find it difficult to "exclude" ourselves, or have "exceptions" accepted by the Denver-area Physician Advisors Group that steers the protocols by consensus. **Any entity teaching W-EMS procedure should overtly advise their students up front that they may not be able to use some of what they are about to learn!** At 01:43 PM 10/16/97 -0400, you wrote: >Here's a winner - in 1994 I took SOLO's WEMT class (add on), When I put in >for the CEU's I got a rather blunt letter from OEMS that in basiclly said I >could wind up >just short of going to jail if I were to use any of the proceedures, that did >not follow already established regional protocols (soon to be statewide) >which inc. nothing regarding long term field care. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- H o w a r d M. P a u l VP, Public Affairs Mgr., Colorado SAR Board EMS Director, Alpine Rescue Team, Evergreen, Colo. "If you don't care where you are, you can't be lost." -- anon. ----------------------------- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:14:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:13:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:13:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:12:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:10:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout38.mail.aol.com (emout38.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.72]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:10:26 -0400 (EDT) From: JSilver374@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout38.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA28209 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971016230901_1868341916@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMT in Mass. Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 3c60c31e31180b3639492b74578a67dc X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 In a message dated 97-10-16 13:48:01 EDT, you write: > Here's a winner - in 1994 I took SOLO's WEMT class (add on), When I put in > for the CEU's I got a rather blunt letter from OEMS that in basiclly said I > could wind up > just short of going to jail if I were to use any of the proceedures, that > did > not follow already established regional protocols (soon to be statewide) > which inc. nothing regarding long term field care. The Comm of Mass seems > to > think that here is no woods in the state, but as I sit here in 550 + ac. I > find it hard to take. > > Anyone with any help other than who to write (I have already done that & so > has Solo) to change this please let me know. You've brought up what amounts to an ethical problem. I've taken SOLO WEMT. If I have to use the skills I've been taught it'll be without medical control, probably in a first-responder capacity in a recreational setting... day hiking, backpacking, skiing, etc. (I'm not on a SAR team) So what do I do? Use interventions that are beyond my 'street' level of training and possibly get into legal trouble or ignore my wilderness training for fear of legal action and put the patient at additional risk. I've already decided what I'd do and I think that's the key here. Decide what you're going to do in advance so you don't have to wrestle with the ethical problems on scene. AND know what the possible consequences could be either way. Until the ethical issue is eliminated by some sort of *legally recognized* wilderness protocol it's going to be an individual choice. Jonathan Silver, EMT-D, WEMT Highland Park, NJ Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:55:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:55:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:54:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:54:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Jaymullen@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id BAA07795 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:54:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:54:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971017015424_1926087274@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMT in Mass. Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 09832b2bb64ec11b3d67eddebba98215 X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 I took SOLO's WEMT class in 1989. They offer fantastic teaching regarding the approach to the treatment of medical problems not often encountered in everyday life. As long as you are 1) proficient at the skills you will perform, 2) acting in the patient's best interests, and 3) performing a skill which is medically indicated, I think you're on relatively safe ground. It's important to note that when you're working in the backcountry, you may be required to do things you wouldn't do if you had access to the medical system. At that time, the law may not back you up, but it would be a reare jury indeed that would convict someone doing their best, when the other option is to place the patient at an exceedingly high risk of loss of life, limb or function. But I'm no lawyer, thank God. Jay Mullen, MD Emergency Medicine University of Arizona Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:16:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:15:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:03:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:00:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ecentral.com (ns.ecentral.com [206.64.70.1]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:00:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Default (ppp68.ecentral.com [206.64.70.68]) by www.ecentral.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA24269 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:00:39 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:00:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710171600.KAA24269@www.ecentral.com> X-Sender: hmpaul@ecentral.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: "Howard M. Paul" Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMT in Mass. Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 5fd15677a7e30f9acf779994cce574d9 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 If you are responding as a member of any EMS agency, and using skills learned in any W-EMS course, if you go beyond or deviate from your agencies established protocols, you may very well be on extremely *unsafe* ground. What this means is that someone without a connection to an EMS organization, such as a casual hiker (a member of the party or not), may actually have more freedom than someone who responds to carry out a rescue, from a responsible agency! At 01:54 AM 10/17/97 -0400, you wrote: As long as you are 1) proficient at the skills you will >perform, 2) acting in the patient's best interests, and 3) performing a skill >which is medically indicated, I think you're on relatively safe ground. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- H o w a r d M. P a u l VP, Public Affairs Mgr., Colorado SAR Board EMS Director, Alpine Rescue Team, Evergreen, Colo. "If you don't care where you are, you can't be lost." -- anon. ----------------------------- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:11:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:11:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:11:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:10:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from graf.cc.emory.edu (graf.cc.emory.edu [170.140.1.44]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:09:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from curly.cc.emory.edu (ghaskel@curly.cc.emory.edu [170.140.1.66]) by graf.cc.emory.edu (8.8.7/8.6.9-950630.01osg-itd.null) with SMTP id PAA15469; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:08:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "Guy H. Haskell" X-Sender: ghaskel@curly.cc.emory.edu To: ems-edu-l@informatics.sunysb.edu, PEDTPT-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU, wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu, trauma-list@lists.duq.edu, PED-EM-L@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU Subject: W-EMED Illustrations needed Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 3df6cbb6cd15eb6cd689c403039ce8b9 I am completing an article on prehospital airway devices for an emergency medicine textbook and am looking for illustrations. If you any illustrations of the following to which you have the rights and are willing to share, please contact me directly. I will be happy to give you credit in the article. Many Thanks, Guy eoa egta lma ptl airway combitube oropharygeal airways nasopharyngeal airways et tubes stylette lighted stylette larygoscope blades and handles end tidal CO2 detector bag-valve mask crycothyrotomy kit McSwain dart ______________________________________________________________________________ Guy H. Haskell, Ph.D., REMT-P Emergency Center Egleston Children's Hospital at Emory University Atlanta, GA 30322 e-mail: ghaskel@emory.edu phone: 404-727-4624 fax: 404-727-2133 He who hesitates is probably right. ______________________________________________________________________________ Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:39:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:38:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:37:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:36:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:36:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Bighoss19@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA13654 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:36:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:36:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971017163609_-1797310777@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMT in Mass. Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 3c1ae1cc9bc0aa422d18126e319a001e X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 Thanks for the suggestions - I think when the need arises I'll DO what is needed, and worry about the legal questions latter. my org. post: Here's a winner - in 1994 I took SOLO's WEMT class (add on), When I put in for the CEU's I got a rather blunt letter from OEMS that in basiclly said I could wind up just short of going to jail if I were to use any of the proceedures, that did not follow already established regional protocols (soon to be statewide) which inc. nothing regarding long term field care. The Comm of Mass seems to think that here is no woods in the state, but as I sit here in 550 + ac. I find it hard to take. Anyone with any help other than who to write (I have already done that & so has Solo) to change this please let me know. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:47:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:47:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:47:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout25.mail.aol.com (emout25.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.130]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:47:22 -0400 (EDT) From: JSilver374@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout25.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA28707 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:46:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:46:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971017214258_660838722@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMT in Mass. Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 3b4881c5e24a2c7c3dd3fb04aabdea9b X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 In a message dated 97-10-17 01:56:41 EDT, you write: ....snip, snip, snip... > It's important to note that when you're working in the backcountry, you may > be required to do things you wouldn't do if you had access to the medical > system. At that time, the law may not back you up, but it would be a reare > jury indeed that would convict someone doing their best, when the other > option is to place the patient at an exceedingly high risk of loss of life, > limb or function. Agreed. I probably wouldn't go to jail but I do need to understand there is the (slim) possibilty I could wind up going head to head with some over zealous county prosecutor plus the attendent legal costs. :( Of course if there's a good outcome, I'm probably off the hook! ;) > > But I'm no lawyer, thank God. Ditto :-D > > Jay Mullen, MD > Emergency Medicine > University of Arizona Jonathan Silver, EMT-D, WEMT Highland Park, NJ Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:55:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:54:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:54:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:52:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout01.mail.aol.com (emout01.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.92]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:52:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Jaymullen@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout01.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id WAA14166 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:52:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:52:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971018225155_1655967821@emout01.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMT in Mass. Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 323259422bcdcbf4a49024605f9234e5 X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 Howard brings up a good paradoxical point. If you are committed enough to helping people in the wilderness to join a search and rescue team, you are unlucky enough to be held to a more stringent standard -- but only while you are responding as a member of that team. If you are on a call, and find yourself in a situation where your agency's protocols prevent you from performing some skill that would prevent a loss of life, limb or function, by all means, bump it up your chain of command. Find somebody to help you decide on your course of action. If you have no one to help you decide, think long and hard. What happens if you do nothing? What happens if you attempt your procedure, and something goes wrong? Weigh the possible consequences of both actions, and decide for yourself. Protocols, just like anything else in medicine, are guidelines, not laws. As you know, Nature has a way of presenting, again and again, situations where to follow a protocol, guideline or law to the letter would be immoral, unethi cal and wrong. Let's remember, we're talking about situations where treatment can not wait. If you, and your patient can wait for more qualified help, by all means, wait. However, if I'm ever the patient in a situation where to wait would mean the loss of a limb, or of my life, I sincerely hope my rescuer performs every needed procedure that he (or she) has been trained for, regardless of what is written on paper in some 3-ring binder. Could somebody tell me exactly what procedures Massachusetts isn't allowing? Jay Mullen, MD Emergency Medicine Univ. of AZ Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: JSilver374@aol.com Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (daemon@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:27:03 -0400 (EDT) From: JSilver374@aol.com Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID for kconover@pop.pitt.edu; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:27:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail for kconover+@pitt.edu; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:27:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com (emout16.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.42]) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA08829; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971019142035_1013169198@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu cc: kconover@pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMSI Wilderness EMT Course Guide now available X-UIDL: 5abe3ae647deec3bd8053b0e38a65efb X-PMFLAGS: 34603136 0 In a message dated 97-10-13 12:33:40 EDT, you write: > The first full official release of the Wilderness EMS Institute's > Wilderness EMT Course Guide is now available at > > http://www.wemsi.org > > The Guide comes as one main part and three large appendices. > Dr. Conover: Thank you! I downloaded the lot of it. Are there any plans for putting up the rest of the lesson plan documents? Jonathan Silver, WEMT Highland Park, NJ -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:30:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:30:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:29:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:27:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.10]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 136.142.57.10.pitt.edu (ehdup-m-1.rmt.net.pitt.edu [136.142.22.11]) by post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/cispo-2.0.1.7) ID ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710201914.PAA13983@post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Keith Conover, M.D." To: JSilver374@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:14:02 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMSI Wilderness EMT Course Guide now available CC: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu In-reply-to: <971019142035_1013169198@emout16.mail.aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: ae27bf59ea70701366390b6c9bbe5ac7 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 On 19 Oct 97 at 14:23, JSilver374@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-10-13 12:33:40 EDT, you write: > > > The first full official release of the Wilderness EMS Institute's > > Wilderness EMT Course Guide is now available at > > > > http://www.wemsi.org > > > > The Guide comes as one main part and three large appendices. > > > > Dr. Conover: > > Thank you! I downloaded the lot of it. Are there any plans for > putting up the rest of the lesson plan documents? > > Jonathan Silver, WEMT > Highland Park, NJ Yes, they'll all be there, in the new format, as we get them done. The textbook, however, we're keeping proprietary, and will be commercially published. Thanks for your interest. --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:10:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:10:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:10:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:09:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from harborside.com (exim@harborside.com [204.214.110.225]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:08:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cme-connection [204.214.112.1] by harborside.com with smtp (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0xNQup-0002gd-00; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:07:15 -0700 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Don Marr" Organization: CME Conection To: Jaymullen@aol.com, wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:11:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMT in Mass. In-reply-to: <971017015424_1926087274@emout10.mail.aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Message-Id: Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: bb6a4177a2ec4f1548308c7bb3c7e4ab X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 > It's important to note that when you're working in the backcountry, you may > be required to do things you wouldn't do if you had access to the medical > system. At that time, the law may not back you up, but it would be a reare > jury indeed that would convict someone doing their best, when the other > option is to place the patient at an exceedingly high risk of loss of life, > limb or function. Unfortunately in some states they have a very set scope of practice for what an EMT at any level can do. If you operate out side that scope of practice you are taking the very real risk of loosing your certification. Donald Marr EMT-P Training Officer Bay Cities Ambulance PO Box 575 Coos Bay, OR 97420 KC7FZI donmarr@harborside.com ******************************************* My oppinions are mine and not those of the agencies or people who hired me, thinking I might change to fit their mold. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:10:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:10:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:10:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:09:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:06:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com (emout16.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.42]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:06:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Bighoss19@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id EAA15877 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:06:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:06:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971021040612_1768341516@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED NASAR SAR Med'l Rsponder? Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: ba9f584f14a8caa5590d68edece33cc2 X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 check out www.nasar.org Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:38:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:34:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hagar.aspentec.com (root@hagar.aspentec.com [192.135.137.199]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:34:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.55.151.97] by hagar.aspentec.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22940; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:32:35 -0400 Received: by falcon.aspentech.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCDE0D.048075C0@falcon.aspentech.com>; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:35:15 -0400 Message-Id: <01BCDE0D.048075C0@falcon.aspentech.com> From: dave walker To: "'wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu'" Subject: RE: W-EMED WEMT in Mass. Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:35:13 -0400 Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 73c68fef7ab88d6e340a6c3f7d10aafd X-PMFLAGS: 34603136 0 How does the good samaritan law factor into this? Is it mandated at the federal or state levels? dave walker > It's important to note that when you're working in the backcountry, you may > be required to do things you wouldn't do if you had access to the medical > system. At that time, the law may not back you up, but it would be a reare > jury indeed that would convict someone doing their best, when the other > option is to place the patient at an exceedingly high risk of loss of life, > limb or function. Unfortunately in some states they have a very set scope of practice for what an EMT at any level can do. If you operate out side that scope of practice you are taking the very real risk of loosing your certification. Donald Marr EMT-P Training Officer Bay Cities Ambulance PO Box 575 Coos Bay, OR 97420 KC7FZI donmarr@harborside.com ******************************************* My oppinions are mine and not those of the agencies or people who hired me, thinking I might change to fit their mold. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:17:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:14:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ecentral.com (ns.ecentral.com [206.64.70.1]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:14:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Default (ppp37.ecentral.com [206.64.70.37]) by www.ecentral.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11439 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:14:20 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:14:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710211514.JAA11439@www.ecentral.com> X-Sender: hmpaul@ecentral.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: "Howard M. Paul" Subject: Re: W-EMED NASAR SAR Med'l Rsponder? Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: d458e210ca9a836fbf42c7cc2b4d8a06 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Well, I did and the SAR Medical Responder is not mentioned. So, again, has anyone heard any news about this new NASAR course & certification? At 04:06 AM 10/21/97 -0400, you wrote: >check out www.nasar.org Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:52:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:52:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:50:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:48:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.96]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:48:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Bighoss19@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA15787 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:48:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:48:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971020232059_1466322107@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMT in Mass. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.1101.emout05.mail.aol.com.877404058" Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: b7dcbc8ae0c32f8d21551a16232f48c3 X-PMFLAGS: 570949760 0 --PART.BOUNDARY.0.1101.emout05.mail.aol.com.877404058 Content-ID: <0_1101_877404059@emout05.mail.aol.com.790> Content-type: text/plain I statred this mess so I figured I send the letter that OEMS sent to me - again I think most folks would do was best for the PT not the lawyers. --PART.BOUNDARY.0.1101.emout05.mail.aol.com.877404058 Content-ID: <0_1101_877404059@emout05.mail.aol.com.791> Content-type: text/plain; name="DOC0002.TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Commonwealth of Massachusetts Executive Office of Health and Human Services Department of Public Health Office of Emergency Medical Services 470 Atla= ntic Avenue, Second = Floor Boston, MA 02210-2208 (617) 753-8300 WILLIAM F. WELD = GOVERNOR =0D ARGEO PAUL GELLUCCI LT GOVERNOR =0D GERALD WHITBURN SECRETARY =0D DAVID H. MULLIGAN December 18, 1995 COMMISSIONER =0D Dear Mr. Harvey =0D This is in response to your letter of December 10th concerning the Wilder= ness EMT module offered by SOLO. Unfortunately = the Wilderness EMT course does not qualify for Massachusetts EMT recertif= ication credit hours. The materials submitted to = this office previously indicate that these programs contain information a= nd/or practices that are not within the written roles, = responsibilities and/or level of training of EMTs in Massachusetts. =0D In addition, some of the material contains information and/or practices t= hat may violate certain state laws and/or regulations = regarding the practice of medicine and/or exceed the scope of practice of= the EMT in Massachusetts. The courses do not = appear to address the specific medico4egal problems that may occur, shoul= d an EMT in Massachusetts utilize certain practices = and/or procedures listed in these programs. In addition, the programs do= not appear to point out which practices and/or = procedures may be prohibited in certain states, with any specificity. =0D Necessary, job related functions, unique to or required of the police off= icer, firefighters athletic trainer, rescue or hazardous = materials team member and/or other professions, do not automatically q@ s= uch training for EMT credit hours. OEMS can = only award EMT credit hours for training that is contained within the sta= te mandated roles, responsibilities, and level of = training of the EMT, as defined in the current training curricula and the= state Regulations. We try to ensure that EMTs focus = their retraining time on their role as a provider of EMT level, pre-hospi= tal patient care and that the material being presented is = consistent with the national/state training curricula for EMTS and most i= mportant, that it is within the level of training, roles = and responsibilities of the EMT in Massachusetts. We regret any inconven= ience this may cause you. If you have any other = questions or concerns, please feel free to contact me, in writing, at the= above address. =0D Yours truly, =0D OFFICE OF EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES =0D Paul H. Coffey Basic EMT Training Coordinator =0D --PART.BOUNDARY.0.1101.emout05.mail.aol.com.877404058-- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:04:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:04:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:04:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:01:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.43]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:01:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 136.142.57.10.pitt.edu (ehdup-f1-14.rmt.net.pitt.edu [136.142.21.84]) by post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/cispo-2.0.1.7) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:52:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710211952.PAA12167@post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Keith Conover, M.D." To: dave walker , Bighoss19@aol.com, wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:52:18 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMT in Mass.(part 1/2) In-reply-to: <971020232059_1466322107@emout05.mail.aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: c89e290b2d3f1ac754d9cc7992ec8184 On 21 Oct 97 at 11:48, Bighoss19@aol.com wrote: > This is in response to your letter of December 10th concerning the > Wilderness EMT module offered by SOLO. Unfortunately the Wilderness > EMT course does not qualify for Massachusetts EMT recertification > credit hours. The materials submitted to this office previously > indicate that these programs contain information and/or practices > that are not within the written roles, responsibilities and/or level > of training of EMTs in Massachusetts. And, On 21 Oct 97 at 10:35, dave walker wrote: > How does the good samaritan law factor into this? > Is it mandated at the federal or state levels? sbeyer@ix.netcom.com (Steve Beyer) and "Howard M. Paul" gave some good answers about the Good Samaritan Laws. First, let me say that the letter basically said that "you can't get ConEd hours for a SOLO WEMT class" because _some_ of it is outside the scope of a MA EMT. Pardon me, but I think this is stupid on the part of MA EMS. There's plenty in the SOLO course that is _within_ the scope of an EMT-Basic in any state, and those who take it should get some ConEd credit. Certainly, the National Registry thinks this way, as do many other (and to my mind, more enlightened) states. Second, Good Samaritan Laws are only laws to provide you a better chance if you do get sued in a civil action. Though some of them _do_ cover EMTs, even if they are fulltime paid professional EMTs, they vary a lot from state to state. And none of them say anything about protecting you from losing your EMT license in a state if you screw up. Here are some excerpts from a document I'm preparing for the WEMSI Web Page: 1. What is a Medical Practice Act and why should I care? In the U.S., each state has a Medical Practice Act that restricts the practice of medicine to those who are licensed by the state. There are two primary reasons for licensing physicians from the state's view: 1) it provides money for the state in the form of licensing fees (a form of tax), and 2) it provides the state's citizens some protection from quacks by establishing criteria for licensing. From the physicians' viewpoint, it both elevates the profession to a higher level and restricts entry to those ho meet the criteria, allowing more prestige, higher fees, and some protection against incompetents in their midst. Again, controlling the practice of medicine is entirely a state prerogative, and the federal government basically isn't involved at all. This means that the privilege to practice medicine ends at the state line. 2. What is Delegated Practice and how does it apply to Wilderness EMTs? >From the earliest time, physicians didn't want to do everything themselves. They wanted to delegate certain tasks (applying leeches, drawing blood, administering medications) to others. States have universally allowed this "delegated practice" in their Medical Practice Acts. So, a physician could tell an office medical technician to give a vaccination, or tell an office orthopedic technician to apply a cast, and it was OK (not a violation of the Medical Practice Act). However, the physician has to directly order the "technician" (the generic term used in most Medical Practice Acts), and accept responsibility for the technician's work quality. 5. What happens when a paramedic or an EMT goes across state lines? Well, basically, the EMT or paramedic has no right to practice medicine in the other state unless specifically granted by that state. And, indeed, many states have established "reciprocity" (but see below) arrangements for both EMTs and Paramedics. The Atlantic EMS Council consists of PA, NJ, RI, DE, DC, MD, VA, and WV. It has arrangements for "granting reciprocity" between EMT and paramedic levels between all members. Specifically, this agreement allows providers of equivalent levels to apply for certification and licensure in another state. Providers have to apply for this, it's not automatic. But among these states, it's generally easy to get EMT or paramedic licensure in another state. Your state EMT certificate is good in another state only if your state and the other state has a special agreement, and you have previously applied for EMT certification in that state. In general, granting EMT certificates is a state responsibility, and they can't automatically offer "reciprocity" for other states' EMTs. But, states can and often do make arrangements to make it easier for EMTs to get a license in another state (e.g., maybe all you have to do is submit paperwork rather than take the state test). Unfortunately, however, this doesn't apply to the physicians who are providing medical control. This means you, as an EMT or paramedic, can practice your limited kind of medicine in a "foreign" state only under the medical direction of a medical control physician who is licensed in the "foreign" state. The Atlantic EMS Council is now working on a new cooperative agreement that will cover many different problems with EMS between its member states, including helicopter transports between one state and another. --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:03:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:02:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:02:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.43]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:02:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 136.142.57.10.pitt.edu (ehdup-f1-14.rmt.net.pitt.edu [136.142.21.84]) by post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/cispo-2.0.1.7) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:52:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710211952.PAA12165@post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Keith Conover, M.D." To: dave walker , Bighoss19@aol.com, wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:52:17 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMT in Mass.(part 2/2) X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: df5eb56113608b2056d3b8593ed8dd53 6. So if I'm an EMT or paramedic, what is my legal status in the backcountry in another state, both for unexpected emergencies and if I respond to the other state regularly as part of a search and rescue team? At present, the only state that we know of with officially state-certified Wilderness EMTs is Maryland. So at present there is no way for these Wilderness EMTs to get "reciprocal" WEMT certification by another state. (A) Unexpected Emergencies: Assume you find yourself in an "exceptional" circumstance, such as this. You are an EMT from Virginia. You are hiking along a trail in Pennsylvania's Potter County, a mile from the nearest road. You run across a hunter who was shot in the leg and has an open fracture. In such a case, you have no legal authority to provide medical care. But Pennsylvania has a Good Samaritan law, specifically designed to encourage people like you to render care. This suggests that, despite the letter of the law that requires you to have a Pennsylvania EMT to provide care, that you should go ahead and provide care for the patient. In the unlikely situation where you end up in court or in a hearing, what standard of care would you be held to? If your training is EMT-Basic, you would be expected to control bleeding and dress and splint. If you are trained as a Wilderness EMT, you would also be expected to, if possible, irrigate the wound before dressing it. (B) Routine Backcountry Care: What if you are part of a SAR team, and your team responds regularly into another state? Well, since there isn't yet any Wilderness EMT "reciprocity," so you can't do that. (Maryland may decide to make it easy for EMTs with WEMSI Wilderness EMT certificates to get Maryland WEMTs, but that's still only a remote possibility at this point). It certainly would be a good idea to get a certificate at the EMT or paramedic level even if, as in Pennsylvania or Maryland, this doesn't extend to the wilderness setting. (If you get into court or into a hearing, it would be evidence of a good-faith intent to abide by the states' laws as much as possible.) WEMSI doesn't provide on-line medical direction except to Wilderness Medics in its own special pilot program. However, if you can certainly use the WEMSI protocols as a good guide to the "standard of care" for backcountry medical care in Pennsylvania. Which means if you have WEMT training plus an EMT or paramedic certificate from another state, you will be well-off legally if you follow the WEMSI protocols (posted on the WEMSI Web page at http://www.wemsi.org). 12. If I am faced with a patient in the backcountry, and I don't know what it's legal for me to do, what should I do? The very bottom line is that when in doubt, do the very best for your patient that you can. Providing bad care because you're afraid of the legal consequences is an almost sure way to get in both medical and legal trouble. Providing good care even if you're not sure it's "legal" is the best way to care for your patient and keep yourself clear of the court system. Just about any lawyer will tell you the same; lawyers are always giving doctors this advice in medical-legal seminars. A good example is a child who comes to the Emergency Department with a significant injury. In some legal sense, the doctor can't treat a minor without the parent's permission. However, if the doctor delays Emergency Department care pending the parent's permission, he or she is taking a big medical and legal risk. Dr. Conover (WEMSI's Medical Director) says he doesn't even ask about parental permission until after he sees the child and figures out if the child needs treatment. Unless the medical treatment the doctor is contemplating is clearly elective, or can wait without any detriment to the child at all, lawyers advise doctors to just go ahead and "do it": suturing a wound, giving an antibiotic, whatever. Only later should the doctor worry about parental permission. Since what the lawyers tell doctors to do what they want to do anyway, it's very satisfying. If in the field and you have a choice between what is right and what you think is legal, choose what's right and you'll probably do better in court, if it ever comes to that, than if you did what's "legal." Here are some quotes from noted medical ethicist, Dr. Ken Iserson: "Rather than concern about scope of practice, the ethical bottom line is always the patient. When physicians (or probably other licensed health care providers) are involved, there should be no problems, since they are legally covered as Good Samaritans. With others, someone has to bite the legal bullet to guarantee the best patient care. In our case, I simply use off-line control to extend the scope of practice. In many of our calls, on-line medical control is impractical or unavailable. "Think of it this way: no EMS protocol takes wilderness medical scenarios into consideration; our patients need help; the law should not prevent this help if it can be safely delivered by wilderness personnel whether trained or not; it is our responsibility to make sure our personnel are as well trained as possible in safe practices for themselves and the patients. "While we can squabble over minutiae involved with first-aiders, EMTs, etc. performing certain tasks in the field, there is no ethical squabble that if they can and do not help the patient, they violate the ethical principles associated with medicine (at all levels), the ethical principles associated with wilderness search and rescue, and the ethical principles associated with being a member of our society." --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:10:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:10:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:10:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:08:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA01215 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:07:51 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:07:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710211707.MAA01215@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com> Received: from chi-il8-27.ix.netcom.com(204.32.166.91) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma001199; Tue Oct 21 12:07:38 1997 From: sbeyer@ix.netcom.com (Steve Beyer) Subject: RE: W-EMED WEMT in Mass. To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 23e5f57a19860750aef2981c0734aa46 X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 dave walker wrote: >How does the good samaritan law factor into this? >Is it mandated at the federal or state levels? Good Sam laws vary from state to state; in fact, I do not believe that every state has such a law. First, note that, in the United States (it is different in some other places), the general rule is that a person, including a health care provider, has no duty to aid anyone in distress unless there is a pre-existing fiduciary relationship with that person. I can ignore a drowning person, step over a person choking and rolling on the floor, and avert my eyes from the comatose diabetic in the gutter -- UNLESS that person is, say, my child, or my existing patient. Second, in the United States, the general rule is that, if you *do* go the aid of a person in distress whom you have no duty to aid, then you *take on* the duty to aid that person non-negligently. In general, then, Good Sam laws provide that a health care provider cannot be held liable for damages *in negligence* when coming to the aid of a stranger in need of medical services. But they do allow (depending on the state) for the good samaritan to be held liable for damages resulting from *gross* negligence, or whatever terms the state uses for a level of carelessness greater than simple negligence. Hope this helps. -- Steve Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:28:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:28:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:26:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ecentral.com (ns.ecentral.com [206.64.70.1]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Default (ppp54.ecentral.com [206.64.70.54]) by www.ecentral.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21174 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:25:48 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:25:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710211725.LAA21174@www.ecentral.com> X-Sender: hmpaul@ecentral.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: "Howard M. Paul" Subject: RE: W-EMED WEMT in Mass. Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 565798087c36c7cfa8d916a2a1f3dbc3 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Good Sam laws are codified at the state level. They pertain to those voluntarily stepping forward to aid another in distress. Therefore, an EMT with a duty to respond (SAR team, EMS, etc.) would not be covered. A "passerby" (hiker, companion, etc.) who helps would be protected. The issue of an EMT-W who is trained beyond his agencies protocols, and assists as a "passerby" (not in conjunction any duty-to-respond agency) is, in my mind, very gray. At 10:35 AM 10/21/97 -0400, you wrote: >How does the good samaritan law factor into this? >Is it mandated at the federal or state levels? > >dave walker > >> It's important to note that when you're working in the backcountry, you may >> be required to do things you wouldn't do if you had access to the medical >> system. At that time, the law may not back you up, but it would be a reare >> jury indeed that would convict someone doing their best, when the other >> option is to place the patient at an exceedingly high risk of loss of life, >> limb or function. > >Unfortunately in some states they have a very set scope of practice >for what an EMT at any level can do. If you operate out side that >scope of practice you are taking the very real risk of loosing your >certification. > >Donald Marr Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:09:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:09:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:09:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:09:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:08:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout36.mail.aol.com (emout36.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.28]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:08:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Bighoss19@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout36.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA29814 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971021153855_1499965383@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMT in Mass. Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 240aa98209a75a0d2c218b78bd8ae3ac X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 I think that the simple thing to would be to change the minds of the policy makers to see that Wilderness Med. has a time & place (ie 1 hour or 1 mile by foot from definite care) an no other options ie helo 4X4 ect - Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:25:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:25:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:23:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:23:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:23:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from cvw@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id QWY28117; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:21:48 EDT To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:20:44 -0600 Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMT in Mass. Message-ID: <19971021.142045.12070.2.cvw@juno.com> References: <199710211725.LAA21174@www.ecentral.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-10,12-13,17-18,25-28,34-35,39-40,42-55,57 From: cvw@Juno.com (chris v weddle) Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 3b62c053c1ca2f8319bbda6cd4061673 X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 On Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:25:48 -0600 (MDT) "Howard M. Paul" writes: >Good Sam laws are codified at the state level. They pertain to those >voluntarily stepping forward to aid another in distress. Therefore, >an EMT with a duty to respond (SAR team, EMS, etc.) would >not be covered. A "passerby" (hiker, companion, etc.) who >helps would be protected. The issue of an EMT-W who is trained >beyond his agencies protocols, and assists as a "passerby" (not >in conjunction any duty-to-respond agency) is, in my mind, very >gray. Supposedly they are covered in Arizona, this may/may not bear a similarity to Massachusetts... As explained to me when I was playing EMT in Arizona: A certified EMT of any level has no Duty to Respond when not on duty with the EMS agency responsible for the region where the incident takes place. Any EMT who did stop to render aid when not on duty was acting as a Good Samaritan. That said, anyone acting as a Good Samaritan would still be expected to perform to the Level of Training to which the person had been trained. If no training the standard is some words like "take all reasonable and prudent action" or some such. But if the "Good Samaritan" is an EMT of any level, then said EMT is stuck trying to provide that Standard of Care without a Base Hospital (or other medical control) and all the backup that is possible in urban and most rural settings. Sounds tricky. At least that's how it goes in Arizona... By the way, Arizona Department of Health Services EMS Division is permitting local EMS regions to create addendums to the EMT curriculum. A process is in place to request special classifications, which if approved become a State Certified option to one's EMT cert. I know of at least one jurisdiction that anticipates approval of their plan to add wilderness medical training to their EMT's bag of tricks in this manner. Aside from the legalities involved, the threat of getting sued is mostly the cost of defending one's self. As long as you stay in the boundaries of your training and perform to your regions Standard of Care, you are unlikely to lose a suit. Paying for the thing is the hard nasty of it! Oh yeah, keep in mind what determines the Standard of Care in your region: 1. EMS Training (Initial). 2. EMS Training (Continuing Education). 3. Medical Control & Periodic Case Review. 4. Regional Protocols.. 5. CASE LAW. Which will revise #'s 1, 2, 3 & 4 above. Good afternoon, Chris Weddle, NREMT-B Colorado Springs, Colorado. late of Mt. Lemmon Fire Dist., MT. Lemmon, AZ (Rope Rescue Instructor). later still of Southern Arizona Rescue Assoc., Tucson, AZ. (Operations Leader). Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: cvw@juno.com Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (daemon@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:17:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID for kconover@pop.pitt.edu; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail for kconover+@pitt.edu; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:17:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:12:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from cvw@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ArU28117; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:11:46 EDT To: kconover@pitt.edu Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:36:37 -0600 Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMT in Mass.(part 2/2) Message-ID: <19971021.221134.3974.0.cvw@juno.com> References: <199710211952.PAA12165@post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-9,13-16 From: cvw@juno.com (chris v weddle) X-UIDL: 00ec5ef1b498610406043581f2c933a7 X-PMFLAGS: 34603136 0 On Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:52:17 +0000 "Keith Conover, M.D." writes: ...deletia... >Here are some quotes from noted medical ethicist, Dr. Ken Iserson: ...deletia... >the ethical principles associated with being a member of our society." >--Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP Hello, I wonder if you could refer me to where you encountered Ken's comments? I knew him during my years in SARA, where I believe Ken is still involved. Am curious to see all of Ken's remarks on this/similar topics. Was this in a book perhaps? Thank you, Chris Weddle -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:47:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:47:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:47:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:42:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:42:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Jaymullen@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id SAA07601 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971021183837_-1671628962@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: RE: W-EMED WEMT in Mass. Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: dfb34638dde53d18a92c8520be351b6b X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 The Good Samaritan Law differs from state to state, in fact some states don't even have one. It was basically written in an attempt to protect people, especially those with medical training, when they stop to help someone in need. My understanding is that if you are acting in the patient's best interests, and are not gaining anything (read $$) from your actions, you are protected should there be a bad outcome. You aren't necessarily protected from the costs of fighting the suit, however. The problem is this -- if you are responding as a member of a paid rescue team, the law doesn't apply. I'm not sure about how it affects volunteer rescue teams. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:26:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:26:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:24:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:24:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from harborside.com (exim@harborside.com [204.214.110.225]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:23:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cme-connection [204.214.112.7] by harborside.com with smtp (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0xNndN-0001iB-00; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:22:45 -0700 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Don Marr" Organization: CME Conection To: dave walker , wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:26:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: W-EMED WEMT in Mass. In-reply-to: <01BCDE0D.048075C0@falcon.aspentech.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Message-Id: Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 5aac88931c528b9bbe9e43df502aeb31 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 > How does the good samaritan law factor into this? > Is it mandated at the federal or state levels? > > dave walker Good Samaritan laws are a state invention. Each state has a different law. In Oregon ( and I would imagine most other states) if you have a duty to act, ie. you are responding with an agency and there fore there is a public expectation for you to act, you are not covered under the terms of the Good Samaritan Act. If you are working with an agency you are under the coverage of their insurance, physician adviser, etc. Donald Marr EMT-P Training Officer Bay Cities Ambulance PO Box 575 Coos Bay, OR 97420 KC7FZI donmarr@harborside.com ******************************************* My oppinions are mine and not those of the agencies or people who hired me, thinking I might change to fit their mold. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:11:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:11:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:09:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:08:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com (emout11.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.26]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:08:17 -0400 (EDT) From: JSilver374@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id XAA12674 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:07:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:07:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971021230521_-1671607432@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED NASAR SAR Med'l Rsponder? Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: a42194e0df1743ffc280fcbec719ee63 X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 In a message dated 97-10-21 11:17:10 EDT, you write: > Well, I did and the SAR Medical Responder is not mentioned. So, again, has > anyone heard any news about this new NASAR course & certification? > Yes it is: Point your browser at: http://www.nasar.org/prod/Edu/sarmr.htm Jonathan Silver, EMT-D, WEMT Highland Park, NJ Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:11:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:11:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:11:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:18:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:38:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bigbang.Generation.NET (bigbang.Generation.NET [205.205.118.5]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:37:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from girsh (portC05.Generation.NET [205.205.118.161]) by bigbang.Generation.NET (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA22283 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971022024030.006a6214@pop.generation.net> X-Sender: garyaemt@pop.generation.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 02:40:30 -0400 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: Gary Robert Silver In-Reply-To: <971021230521_-1671607432@emout11.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 3314af121bea10d2dbb54d8096ef451d X-PMFLAGS: 35127424 0 could someone please tell me how to be removed from the mailing list Thanks I really need this vacation! Gary R. Silver Urgences Sante Montreal garyaemt@generation.net or gsilve@po-box.mcgill.ca Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:11:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:11:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:11:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:18:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 04:56:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout31.mail.aol.com (emout31.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.14]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 04:55:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Bighoss19@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout31.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id EAA04742 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 04:55:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 04:55:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971021153527_-57350585@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMT in Mass. Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 55cefb0f2f9612e306d619f4814ef787 X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 I have added the letter that the state sent me onto my homepage http://members.aol.com/bighoss19/doc002.txt Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:19:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:19:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:13:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:11:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.10]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:11:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 136.142.57.10.pitt.edu (ehdup-a2-13.rmt.net.pitt.edu [136.142.20.43]) by post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/cispo-2.0.1.7) ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:02:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710221302.JAA29527@post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Keith Conover, M.D." To: "Howard M. Paul" , wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:02:32 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: RE: W-EMED WEMT in Mass. In-reply-to: <199710220441.WAA08266@www.ecentral.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: e143db5b39e4d1c4360c6f3006221f20 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 On 21 Oct 97 at 22:41, Howard M. Paul wrote: > Compensation has no bearing on the issue we are discussing: hence > paid or unpaid professional is irrelevant. What is relevant is > whether the agency has a duty to respond, a duty to care. Either a > paid or volunteer unit can have a duty to care for the patient and > as such would not be offered protection under a Good Sam law. Not true. Some states offer Good Sam protection to full-time paid paramedics as part of their regular duties. But others only cover doctors. --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:17:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mlngw.chinalake.navy.mil (mlngw.chinalake.navy.mil [129.131.110.31]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:17:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: 22 Oct 1997 09:11:58 -0700 From: "Chris Antonsen" Subject: W-EMED Good Sam Laws To: "w-emt" X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP-QM 3.0.2 Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: e52ed032f3df7c54ea5eb94e2a875b8f X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 i went to the suggested site: http://naemt.org/nemsie/menu-gs.htm i then went to: http://naemt.org i found an article on the "National Volunteer Protection Act" dated june of 1997. it basically says congress is working on a national umbrella for volunteers. does anyone know of the disposition of this legislation? oddly enough, i just went back to this site and the particular path to the discussion had literally disappeared. my question about the legislation still remains, however. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:59:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:59:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:27:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from isnet.is.bgsm.edu (root@isnet.is.bgsm.edu [152.11.118.6]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:23:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.27.1.1.ols.net (slip166-72-106-188.nc.us.ibm.net [166.72.106.188]) by isnet.is.bgsm.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA25018 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971022162212.006bcbd0@bgsm.edu> X-Sender: ralson@bgsm.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:22:12 -0400 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: "Roy L. Alson, PhD, MD" Subject: Re: W-EMED WEMT in Mass.(part 2/2) In-Reply-To: <199710211952.PAA12165@post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 13a6fc9a3a479416bc43bbbd79084d6c X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 snip: >12. If I am faced with a patient in the backcountry, and I don't know >what it's legal for me to do, what should I do? > >The very bottom line is that when in doubt, do the very best for your >patient that you can. Providing bad care because you're afraid of the >legal consequences is an almost sure way to get in both medical and >legal trouble. Providing good care even if you're not sure it's >"legal" is the best way to care for your patient and keep yourself >clear of the court system. > "Sins of Commission are easier to defend than Sins of Ommission" Those of us who have chosen EMS (and WEMS) as either a a career or "hobby" have a moral obligation to provide care to those we encounter, who need such care. Our personalities would not let us do otherwise. There is no easy answer to this problem, nor one that will cover all jurisdictions. To repeat what has already been said, when in doubt do what is in the best interest of the patient. Regards, Roy ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Roy L. Alson, PhD, MD, FACEP Assistant Professor of Emergency Medicine Bowman Gray School of Medicine Medical Director NC Baptist AirCare ralson@bgsm.edu 910-716-2193 Fax: 910-716-5438 ..All opinions expressed here are my own.. "Opinions are like rectal sphincters... Everyone has at least one!"... Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:26:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:25:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:25:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:23:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.tenforward.com (mail.tenforward.com [206.213.105.2]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:23:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default [206.213.105.106] by mail.tenforward.com (SMTPD32-4.02c) id AD9167501AC; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:26:25 PSTPDT Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971022152100.006f182c@tenforward.com> X-Sender: tates@tenforward.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:21:00 -0700 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: tates Subject: Re: W-EMED Good Sam Laws In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: c037bdc022c797b59903911ab0fd9ba9 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Yes it was passed, BUT (You knew it was coming huh?) The lawyers don't know what it means yet they won't know until somebody sues and it is used as a defense. Try going to www.congress.gov and searching in the bills enacted during the 104th congress. Alternately I have a copy downloaded I can email it to you. On the other topics that have been brought up under this thread 1: The letter from the state adequately responds to the question that you posed. They aren't going to recert you based on training that does not meet their standards. Notice that they didn't tell you not to get the training or not to practice the skills that you learned. The person you want to talk to about using advanced skills is your MPD he is the one who licensed you and can tell you what you can and can't do in the field. You may find that a sympathetic doctor may allow you to do things that you never dreamed of. 2: Good Samaritan laws - You need to consult a lawyer who is experienced with the law in your area. Trusting anybody elses opinion is foolish. That said if you are negligent you are not going to be covered by the good sam law regardless of what juridiction you are in. As an EMT you are held to a higher standard of care and if you exceed that level of care you are going to be left hanging in the breeze when it is all over. If you think about most of the stuff you learned in wilderness EMT or other extended care training you will find that most things you are taught are simply refinements of what you probably already new. My .02 take it for what you will David Tate Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:42:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:42:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:41:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:39:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.redrose.net (mail.redrose.net [204.249.184.22]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:39:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 8211 invoked by uid 0); 23 Oct 1997 22:25:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 13285 invoked from network); 23 Oct 1997 16:25:12 -0000 Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (majordom@136.142.185.20) by mail.redrose.net with SMTP; 23 Oct 1997 16:25:12 -0000 Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.goodnet.com (mail.goodnet.com [207.98.129.2]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:53:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from PC_.goodnet.com (phx-ts19-27.goodnet.com [207.98.133.92]) by mail.goodnet.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id HAA11445 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:53:35 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <199710210206.UAA27688@www.ecentral.com> References: Conversation <199710210206.UAA27688@www.ecentral.com> with last message <199710210206.UAA27688@www.ecentral.com> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "WEMS News" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Tim Kovacs" Subject: Re: W-EMED NASAR SAR Med'l Rsponder? Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 07:17:09 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: b380df249871fda8d475450b8b2c8909 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 The curriculum has been published and available through NASAR stores. Kevin Rolfe was working on the test questions and I haven't heard the status on that. He was also to do pilot courses in Florida. Clint Bassett is the brand new NASAR President and may change some things around. The SAR EMT would take about another 6 - 12 months. I know this much, but nothing more. I was representing MRA interest and philosophy and myself on the editorial committee in the final stages, before the committee was disbanded by a previous NASAR administration, so the rest of it has escaped me. Here's to the white stuff in Denver. Off I go to reaccredit Las Vegas in Rock and Search this weekend. P.S.- I have finished the Arizona Dept. of Health Serv ices WEMS curriculum and protocols and am tweaking it from the input of the national review people. Hope to present it to the EMS Council within 2 months for final. PPS- did you get my email regarding the carabiner failures in Europe? Finally, elections for MRA in June at Mt. Hood. There will be spots for President, Vice President...Where do we go from here? Best Wishes, Tim K. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:03:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:57:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bunny.rz.hu-berlin.de (sm5778@bunny.rz.hu-berlin.de [141.20.1.111]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:55:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 0476air (md45-022.mun.compuserve.com) by bunny.rz.hu-berlin.de with ESMTP (1.37.109.24/15.6-10.92) id AA006572141; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:55:41 +0100 Message-Id: <344F5B35.AC3ACF60@rz.hu-berlin.de> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:12:06 +0200 From: Ulf Klostermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED Vacuum Splints X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Conversation <10383069@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> with last message <3.0.2.32.19970712091154.006b9ed0@mail.tenforward.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 99b8d2a1f7aa72ede392139ba8d782be X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Tim Kovacs wrote: > PS on vaccuum mattresses. They do not yet have widespread favor to be > used > as the single rigid device in a bauman or jenny type helo short haul > bag, > so you should still use a rigid board or in a litter before you place > it in > a non rigid helicopter short haul bag or cargo net with a person in > it. It > may collapse under that kind of pressure. > And the small pump can be used, but it has received many four letter > field > comments as it takes longer and promotes more lactic acidosis in > rescuers' > arms than the larger pump. > I echo all of Howard Paul's comments (Hi Howard!). > Tim > Do not reproduce without author's express permission. > To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe > wilderness-emergency-medicine" > as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu > Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu I am working for the helicopter rescue team "Air Zermatt" in Zermatt; Switzerland. The Air Zermatt is using vacuum splints for over 15 years in any kind of SAR operations and at altitudes up to 15,000ft. We also use these vacuum mattrasses in winch operations without an additional rigid board or litter. We have designed a special rescue bag with 8 ropes around the vacuum splint and these combination does not collapse! So you will have a small and light package consisting of the flexibile vacuum splint and the rescue bag, which is very comfortable for the rescuer to go out of the helicopter e.g. by winch. You will have an rigid system after evacuating the air and modelling the matrass with excellent fixation of the trauma victim especially for spinal trauma victims. The styropor rolls contained in the vacuum matrasses ensure a very good insulation and in combination with the rescue bag you will get protection against windchill. We are using the vacuum matrasses from Schnitzler Inc.; Germany, which are well designed and durable in the mountaneering environment. In Europe we have extensive experiences with vacuum splints, because every rescue organisation - terrestric or air rescue - is using it for about 20 years. Our emergency departement (Departement of Anesthesiology and Intensive Care; Charité, Berlin, Germany) and our ambulance services of Berlin are using these vacuum splints also and we can highly recommend it. In the alps are different rescue bags for helicopter winch operations in use: The austrian helicopter teams have developed a recue bag very similar to our system in Zermatt and the swiss helicopter team "REGA" has developed a bag with 10 ropes. All these system are used in combination with vacuum splints and without a rigid board! The swiss REGA has developed a cargo net called "horizontal net" with 8 ropes for helicopter winch operations. These horizontal net is very small and extremly light and you can transport a trauma victim in a horizontal position without using a rigid board or vacuum splint. .The advantage of the horizontal net is that, as its name suggests, the patient can lie in a horizontal position with his legs outstretched and his back straight. The horizontal net was constructed by Rega and, folded up, is so small that it can be encircled by two hands. Despite the lack of fixation these system has been proven in more extrem rescue operations. A description of these horizontal net and helicopter rescue operations by REGA you will find on the following homepage: http://www.rega.ch/english/ausr.html The description of the system in Zermatt and pictures of AIR ZERMATT rescue operations you could find on the following page: http://www.loretan.com/friends/bruno.html (see picture no.4: vacuum splint, rescue-bag is open and will later on enclosure the trauma victim) Take care! Ulf Ulf Klostermann, MD Medical staff AIR ZERMATT Heliport Air Zermatt CH-3920 Zermatt; Switzerland e-mail: UlfKlostermann@compuserve.com or Departement of Anesthesiology and Intensive Care Charité Humboldt-University; Berlin Schumannstr. 20/21 D-10117 Berlin Germany e-mail: h0476air@rz.hu-berlin.de phone +49-30-8133183 Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:46:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:45:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:00:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ecentral.com (ns.ecentral.com [206.64.70.1]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:46:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Default (ppp58.ecentral.com [206.64.70.58]) by www.ecentral.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08490 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:45:56 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:45:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710231545.JAA08490@www.ecentral.com> X-Sender: hmpaul@ecentral.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: "Howard M. Paul" Subject: Re: W-EMED Good Sam Laws Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: fc68bbf52a34222e8a3705e2b1cd0813 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 This act passed and was signed last spring. It does not offer protection to volunteers, in the sense that a state's Good Samaritan law would. What it does is compel states to pass their own such protection laws, and if they have done so, exempt themselves from certain provisions of the federal law. If anyone wants *details* you can call me at work and I'll try to dig up my copy of an Association Management magazine article on it. Howard Paul (303) 871-8356 (800) 783-5951 Executive Secretary, EMS Association of Colorado VP, PR Director, Colo. Search and Rescue Board At 09:11 AM 10/22/97 -0700, you wrote: >i found an article on the "National Volunteer Protection Act" dated june of >1997. it basically says congress is working on a national umbrella for >volunteers. does anyone know of the disposition of this legislation? Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:15:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:15:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:15:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:13:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pol.net (sigma.po.com [204.178.220.39]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:13:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web1. (web1.po.com [204.178.220.31]) by pol.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA24851; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:10:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by web1. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA10347; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:10:42 -0400 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:10:42 -0400 Message-Id: <199710240010.UAA10347@web1.> Mime-Version: 1.0 From: Bruce Nayowith To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: W-EMED WEMT courses in November Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 0329f77d0ef3946e8649283f7a106f2f X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 One of our nurse/EMT’s put in for vacation with the intent of attending the WEMSI Basic Wilderness Rescue and W-EMT course for November, and just found out that they have both been cancelled. Is anyone aware of how I could find out if any other courses of this nature are being offered during the time period of November 7-18th?? Please email me at Bnayowith@pol.net Thank you, Bruce Nayowith MD Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:33:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:33:32 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:33:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:32:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:29:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from harborside.com (exim@harborside.com [204.214.110.225]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:29:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from cme-connection [204.214.112.10] by harborside.com with smtp (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0xPhkG-0005qS-00; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:29:45 -0800 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Don Marr" Organization: CME Conection To: tates , wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:34:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: W-EMED Good Sam Laws In-reply-to: <3.0.2.32.19971022152100.006f182c@tenforward.com> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Message-Id: Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 21b26b6a0033a82ca95ce408f49bbc9c X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 > > On the other topics that have been brought up under this thread > > 1: The letter from the state adequately responds to the question that you > posed. They aren't going to recert you based on training that does not meet > their standards. Notice that they didn't tell you not to get the training > or not to practice the skills that you learned. The person you want to talk > to about using advanced skills is your MPD he is the one who licensed you > and can tell you what you can and can't do in the field. You may find that > a sympathetic doctor may allow you to do things that you never dreamed of. Be careful here. In some states there is a very strict scope of practice. Some procedures that seem right are deemed out of scope and you will hang no matter whose permission you have. > > 2: Good Samaritan laws - You need to consult a lawyer who is experienced > with the law in your area. Trusting anybody elses opinion is foolish. That > said if you are negligent you are not going to be covered by the good sam > law regardless of what juridiction you are in. As an EMT you are held to a > higher standard of care and if you exceed that level of care you are going > to be left hanging in the breeze when it is all over. If you think about > most of the stuff you learned in wilderness EMT or other extended care > training you will find that most things you are taught are simply > refinements of what you probably already new. Well said. Donald Marr EMT-P Training Officer Bay Cities Ambulance PO Box 575 Coos Bay, OR 97420 KC7FZI donmarr@harborside.com ******************************************* My oppinions are mine and not those of the agencies or people who hired me, thinking I might change to fit their mold. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:24:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:24:05 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:24:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:22:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:21:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.43]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from 136.142.57.10.pitt.edu (ehdup-c3-2.rmt.net.pitt.edu [136.142.20.172]) by post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/cispo-2.0.1.7) ID ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:13:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199710271413.JAA03344@post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Keith Conover, M.D." To: "Howard M. Paul" Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:13:02 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: W-EMED Re: Good Samaritan laws CC: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu In-reply-to: <199710221652.KAA07776@www.ecentral.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: b605ddc3955bb275b8ebf6f3168a3379 On 22 Oct 97 at 10:52, Howard M. Paul wrote: > Keith, I think you are missing the point. Good Sam laws are designed > to protect someone with no duty to care who aids someone in > distress. In other words, "off duty" if you are with an agency. > > Are you telling me that if a paid EMT and a volunteer EMT both treat > a patient at a scene to which they have not been called, the paid > EMT is protected by a Good Samaritan law and the volunteer is not? > > BTW, Good Sam laws were originally codified to protect physicians > who may offer medical aid to someone with him they have no previous > physician-patient relationship, and offer such help outside the > physician's normal environment (e.g. at an automobile crash they > happened along). Howard, you're absolutely right. I didn't mean to imply that volunteers wouldn't be covered whereas paid people would -- only that some states decided that their -paid- people deserved the coverage, too. The lawmakers decided that they wanted to so this, so they did. --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:42:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:42:09 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:42:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:41:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:40:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.43]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:40:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from 136.142.57.10.pitt.edu (ehdup-e2-2.rmt.net.pitt.edu [136.142.21.32]) by post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/cispo-2.0.1.7) ID for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:36:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199710271836.NAA17779@post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Keith Conover, M.D." To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:36:50 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: W-EMED uns ub scribing X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 0da56e95f68e4b263cb4ac9874f61dc9 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 BTW, Majordomo will "bounce" to the listowner any message with nasty words like uns ub scribe (minus the spaces) in the subject or first few lines of a message, which is why there are spaces in the subject of this message. On 22 Oct 97 at 2:40, Gary Robert Silver wrote: > could someone please tell me how to be removed from the mailing list > Thanks I really need this vacation! > > > > > > > > > Standard way is to just send unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine to majordomo@list.pitt.edu and it will pick up your address from the header and unsubscribe you. If this doesn't work, please send to the same address who wilderness-emergency-medicine to get a list of everyone who is subscribed, and see which address is yours; let me know and I'll unsubscribe it directly. P.S. If you take a look at the bottom of each message from the list, it tells you there how to unsubscribe. --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:34:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:34:35 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:34:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:33:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:31:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.goodnet.com (mail.goodnet.com [207.98.129.2]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:30:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from PC_.goodnet.com (phx-ns36-9.goodnet.com [207.204.253.106]) by mail.goodnet.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA02004 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:30:44 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <344F5B35.AC3ACF60@rz.hu-berlin.de> References: Conversation <10383069@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> with last message <344F5B35.AC3ACF60@rz.hu-berlin.de> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "WEMS News" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Tim Kovacs" Subject: Re: W-EMED Vacuum Splints Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 20:52:24 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 9255ad9565e3b1adae5411d1c819cde4 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Ulf. As the US delegate to the IKAR for Terrestrial, I am familiar with your work in vaccuum splints and the lightweight nets. I have not however been able to repeat the testing here, nor have I been able to get written documentation about the net. This is why I hesitated mentioning it to the WEMS News. Secondly, we use a slightly varied version of your Germa and it may or may not be as good of quality as your vaccuum bags. Finally, your net (the eight point system I saw Silvio Refondini demonstrate to me in Lausanne earlier this month) is not available here. I planned to request the French at Chamonix send me their research on it. If you can help me with any of these documents or research, I would appreciate it. I must present this to several audiences in the US, in my role for IKAR. Tshuss und Vielen Dank Tim Kovacs, Vice President, Mountain Rescue Association US Delegate to IKAR Terrestrial tkovacs@goodnet.com Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:26:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:25:57 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:25:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:24:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:22:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from host.ott.igs.net (root@host.ott.igs.net [206.248.16.2]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from ttyE1a.ott.igs.net (ttyE1a.ott.igs.net [207.210.11.28]) by host.ott.igs.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA14296 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:22:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199710290222.VAA14296@host.ott.igs.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Alex Mckenzie" To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:25:53 -0500 Subject: W-EMED Legal Stuff X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 6189a0f717fe6db5a9b0107735dd41f4 X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 I've been reading the "W-EMED WEMT in Mass." thread, and I was wondering if anyone could provide me with similar information for Canada, particularly Ontario, with regards both to Good Samaritan situations (i.e.: coming across a car accident), and with regards to St. John's Ambulance.(I just recently started volunteering with the brigade) (BTW: I'm not an EMT, I've only got a couple of first aid courses) Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:01:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:00:42 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:00:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:58:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:56:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from clgrps05.agt.net (clgrps05.agt.net [198.161.156.16]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:56:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME ([204.209.206.112]) by mail.telusplanet.net with SMTP id <268887-20529>; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:54:28 -0700 X-Sender: dhsc@mail.agt.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: dhsc@agt.net (Donovan & Sheri) Subject: Re: W-EMED Legal Stuff X-Mailer: Message-Id: <97Oct30.135428-0700_mst.268887-20529+69@mail.telusplanet.net> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:54:27 -0700 Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 7b050e4e1e40adab5988b42052a74f3c X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 > >I've been reading the "W-EMED WEMT in Mass." thread, and I was >wondering if anyone could provide me with similar information for >Canada, particularly Ontario, with regards both to Good Samaritan >situations (i.e.: coming across a car accident), and with regards to >St. John's Ambulance.(I just recently started volunteering with the >brigade) (BTW: I'm not an EMT, I've only got a couple of first aid >courses) I can't offer Ontario info, but in Alberta the Emergency Medical Aid Act is really clear. If you call the local courthouse, they should have a law library (or one somewhere in your city). Go down, ask for the Ontario equivalent and give it a read. The librarians at the law libraries I have been in so far have all been very helpful. Once you've read it, any questions can be run past a lawyer. It sounds way more difficult than it is. Alberta's act is only a few pages long. Good luck, and if you have any questions about how to do this, feel free to let me know. Donovan Hoggan ps. Ask your brigade's first-aid instructor. In Alberta, St. John instructors can list off the four requirements the Act has. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:01:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:00:34 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:00:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:59:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:56:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from naps.uwindsor.ca (dns.uwindsor.ca [137.207.232.1]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:56:37 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: naps: Host server.campus.uwindsor.ca claimed to be server.uwindsor.ca Received: from [137.207.98.20] (c2s0m9.student.uwindsor.ca [137.207.98.20]) by server.uwindsor.ca (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA10381 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:55:59 -0500 X-Sender: pirie1@server.uwindsor.ca (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199710290222.VAA14296@host.ott.igs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:54:04 -0500 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: "Steven D. Pirie" Subject: W-EMED Legal Stuff (Ontario) Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 1e06f39d60154c02c14e8ae19c7b90ba X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Alex and List, >I was wondering if anyone could provide me with similar information for >Canada, particularly Ontario, with regards both to Good Samaritan >situations (i.e.: coming across a car accident), and with regards to >St. John's Ambulance. The answer is not as complicated here in Ontario as the US of A. Here is a copy (without permission) of the publication It Doesn't Hurt To Help put out by the Ontario Ministry of the Attorney General. I am sure that you will find it informative and / or useful. START ----- One day you may be present at the scene of an accident. Someone in distress may require your help. How will you react? Will you go immediately to that person's aid? Or will you hesitate out of fear of legal action? There is no need to hesitate. If you can help, the law is on your side. Ontario law is clear: whether you have medical training or not, the courts expect you to use common sense. Do what is reasonable considering the seriousness of the situation and your own skills. It doesn't hurt to help. What the law looks for is a common sense approach from anyone who stops to help another in an emergency. Even medical people are expected to provide only assistance that is reasonable, considering their training, the circumstances of the accident and the extent of the injuries involved. For example, the law takes into consideration that it is obviously more difficult to treat a severely injured person on a dark roadside without equipment than it would be in a hospital emergency room. With this in mind, in an emergency medical situation, and doctor, nurse or medical person, including someone trained in assisting, should step forward to help with no real concern for a successful lawsuit against them. The law does expect you to be cautious when your actions could affect others. You do not want to cause more harm then good to the person you are trying to help. If the life of the victim is not in danger and you don't know what to do, stay with the victim, if possible, and send for help. The law also requires that once you have accepted responsibility for giving emergency assistance to a victim of accident or illness, you must continue to give help until another person is able to take over - the desirable person being one with medical training, of course. The reason is that the person initially offering help may have discouraged any other potential helper. There is no general legal duty to help someone in an emergency. However in a few cases people do have a specific legal duty to provide assistance. One of the most important is the legal duty placed on any person involved in a motor vehicle accident. That person must stop and give all possible assistance to the persons involved. As another example, a lifeguard would have a duty to assist a drowning swimmer. Give the help that you would hope to receive if you were in similar circumstances. What You Can Do: - Identify yourself to the injured person. If you are a nurse, a doctor or a person trained in first aid, say so. - If the person is conscious, ask the person if he or she wants help. A person has the right to refuse assistance and it is unlawful to act against the person's wishes. - If a conscious adult or older child willingly accepts your help, you have sufficient authority under the circumstances to help. - If a young child requires emergency medical care and a parent is not available to consent, you can provide emergency aid. - If the person is unconscious, extend any urgent care necessary. Additional copies of this pamphlet are available by writing to: Communications Office Ministry of the Attorney General 720 Bay Street Toronto, Ontario M5G 2K1 --- END Steven ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OCdt Steven D. Pirie, BScN(c) Canadian Forces Medical Service University of Windsor College of Engineering and Science School of Nursing ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:02:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:01:51 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:01:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:00:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 15:57:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ecentral.com (ns.ecentral.com [206.64.70.1]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 15:57:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from Default (ppp67.ecentral.com [206.64.70.67]) by www.ecentral.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24984; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 13:57:17 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 13:57:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711012057.NAA24984@www.ecentral.com> X-Sender: hmpaul@ecentral.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: csrb@rmsd.comm, mra@altadena.net, rockymra@smoky.exabyte.com, sar-l@islandnet.com, wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: "Howard M. Paul" Subject: W-EMED Neumonic for SAR EMS? Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: dc508dff5fc7c9e40e372326d444a0d0 Looking for other teams that may have adopted a "team-wide" mnemonic device for charting on EMS patient forms. I would like to do so for us. My personal favorite (from EMT school years ago) is adopted from a mnemonic for an ambulance radio report -- CHEAT: C Chief complaint H History (patient) E Exam (findings) A Action (taken) T Time (to transport) Another used locally is POLCAT: P: Paged to O: On arrival L: LOC C: Chief complaint A: Assessment T: Treatment & Transport What does your team use? As I've posted this to Colorado SAR Listserver, MRA National Listserver, MRA-Rky Mtn Reg. Listserver, Wilderness Med-L and the SAR-L list, please e-mail me direct and I will post a synopsis to everyone. Thanks to all. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- H o w a r d M. P a u l VP, Public Affairs Mgr., Colorado SAR Board EMS Director, Alpine Rescue Team, Evergreen, Colo. "If you don't care where you are, you can't be lost." -- anon. ----------------------------- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:43:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:43:41 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:43:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:42:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:40:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from greatdane.webnexus.com (greatdane.webnexus.com [165.227.96.3]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:40:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from dalmatian.webnexus.com (dalmatian.webnexus.com [165.227.96.4]) by greatdane.webnexus.com (8.8.7/8.8.5/WN-1.2) with ESMTP id NAA01760; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 13:40:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kovar@localhost) by dalmatian.webnexus.com (8.8.7/8.8.5/WN-1.2) id NAA18774; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 13:40:55 -0800 (PST) From: David Kovar Message-Id: <199711012140.NAA18774@dalmatian.webnexus.com> Subject: W-EMED Re: Neumonic for SAR EMS? To: sar-l@islandnet.com Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 13:40:55 -0800 (PST) Cc: csrb@rmsd.comm, mra@altadena.net, rockymra@smoky.exabyte.com, wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu In-Reply-To: <199711012057.NAA24984@www.ecentral.com> from "Howard M. Paul" at Nov 1, 97 01:57:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: c54a47bbadb9d4ebe0be93c997b3590d These are the mnemonics I use. Primary Survey: A Airway B Breathing C Circulation D Disability E Expose and Examine Medical History A Allergies to medications M Medications and drugs currently being taken P Prior medical history or conditions L Last meal eaten today (when and what) E Events prior to injury or illness Pupillary response: P Pupils E Equal R Reactive L Light Level of Consciousness A Alert V Responds to Verbal stimuli P Responds to Painful stimuli U Unresponsive For Pain Assessment P Provoke Q Quality R Region/Radiates S Severity (Scale of 1 to 10) T Time of onset Handling Emergencies FARTSSS Fallback And ReThink - Secure the Area, Secure the vehicle, Secure the patient A Airway B Breathing C Circulation B Bleeding S Spine T.B.E. Total Body Exam M.I.D. Medical ID H.A.M. History, Allergies, Medication. > > Looking for other teams that may have adopted a "team-wide" mnemonic device > for charting on EMS patient forms. I would like to do so for us. My > personal favorite (from EMT school years ago) is adopted from a mnemonic > for an ambulance radio report -- CHEAT: > C Chief complaint > H History (patient) > E Exam (findings) > A Action (taken) > T Time (to transport) > > Another used locally is POLCAT: > P: Paged to > O: On arrival > L: LOC > C: Chief complaint > A: Assessment > T: Treatment & Transport > > What does your team use? > > As I've posted this to Colorado SAR Listserver, MRA National Listserver, > MRA-Rky Mtn Reg. Listserver, Wilderness Med-L and the SAR-L list, please > e-mail me direct and I will post a synopsis to everyone. > > Thanks to all. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > H o w a r d M. P a u l > VP, Public Affairs Mgr., Colorado SAR Board > EMS Director, Alpine Rescue Team, Evergreen, Colo. > > "If you don't care where you are, you can't be lost." -- anon. > ----------------------------- > > ========================================================================== > SAR-L Search and Rescue discussion list. For unsubscribe information-email > to sar-l-request@islandnet.com with the word 'help' in the subject field. > ========================================================================== > Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:27:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:27:14 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:27:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:26:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:23:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from m18.boston.juno.com (m18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.191]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:22:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from schmidtcarl@juno.com) by m18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KHG08554; Mon, 03 Nov 1997 10:21:20 EST To: kovar%WebNexus.COM@Exabyte.COM Cc: sar-l@islandnet.com, csrb@rmsd.comm, mra@altadena.net, rockymra@smoky.Exabyte.COM, wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:18:34 -0700 Subject: W-EMED Re: Neumonic for SAR EMS? Message-ID: <19971103.081835.12414.0.schmidtcarl@juno.com> References: <199711012140.NAA18774@dalmatian.webnexus.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-17 From: schmidtcarl@Juno.com (Carl F Schmidt) Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 98531362085bd25e65fa3b71d24dd19e X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 Regarding mnemonics for EMS: I learned ones similar to David Kovar's but a little different. S---- Signs & Symptoms A---- Allergies M---- Medications P---- Pertinent medical history L---- Last meal E---- Events leading up to injury For pains: O--- Onset P--- Provoked by Q--- Qualities of the pain R--- Radiates S--- Severity (1-10) T--- Time (how long have you had it?) Carl Schmidt Larimer County SAR Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:29:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:28:56 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:28:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:28:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:25:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from host.ott.igs.net (root@host.ott.igs.net [206.248.16.2]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:24:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ttyE1f.ott.igs.net (ttyE1f.ott.igs.net [207.210.11.33]) by host.ott.igs.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA18812; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:24:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711032224.RAA18812@host.ott.igs.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Alex Mckenzie" To: csrb@rmsd.comm, mra@altadena.net, rockymra@smoky.exabyte.com, sar-l@islandnet.com, wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu, wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:27:55 -0500 Subject: Re: W-EMED Neumonic for SAR EMS? X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: ec089fefd60599e44670a9d2dc55faba > Looking for other teams that may have adopted a "team-wide" mnemonic device > for charting on EMS patient forms. I would like to do so for us. My > personal favorite (from EMT school years ago) is adopted from a mnemonic > for an ambulance radio report -- CHEAT: Here are a few from the first aid courses I've taken: HID: _H_azards _I_dentify yourself _D_etermine what happened, the number of casualties, and the mechanism of injury ABC: _A_irway _B_reathing _C_irculation SAMPLE: _S_ymptoms _A_llergies _M_edication _P_ast medical history _L_ast ate _E_vents leading up to the injury Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:39:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:39:35 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:39:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:38:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:37:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from gw.bbt.com (gw.bbt.com [192.154.90.1]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by gw.bbt.com (8.8.0/8.7.3) id HAA02659 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:37:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from wrath.bbt.com(192.154.83.58) by gw.bbt.com via smap (3.2) id xma002641; Tue, 4 Nov 97 07:37:11 -0500 Received: from mckinley (mckinley [192.154.84.246]) by wrath-ne.bbt.com (8.8.0/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA17238 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:36:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <345F16CD.BA4@bbt.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 07:36:29 -0500 From: Mike Claes Organization: BroadBand Technologies, INC X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: WEM Subject: W-EMED Re: [CCC] death on the Ocoee References: <19971104.052108.3398.1.PadlnJones@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 65bf2cb3ca2b9d137f5428bd1e632b2b X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 I was wondering if anyone had seen this one yet and had a chance to evaluate what happened... I wasn't there -- But I can't in my wildest dreams imagine trying to cut a spray skirt off a paddler in turbulent water with a knife. That is just asking for the type of injury that did occur. Other comments? -Mike > > Story copied from RecBoatsPaddle: > > Subject: The Death of Mike Reisman on the Ocoee River > From: gratefuled@aol.com (GratefulEd) > Date: 1997/11/02 > Message-ID: <19971102220500.RAA04119@ladder01.news.aol.com> > Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle > [More Headers] > > This is the story of the death of Mike Reisman (sp?) just below Double > Trouble > on the Ocoee on November 1, 1997. > > I wanted to write to you about the death of Mike's death for a couple of > reasons. For good or for ill, I helped work on Mike out there on the > middle > of the river, and my main concern here is setting the record straight > about > what was a very wierd and tragic situation. I've also found writing to > be a > very theraputic pastime...and given the fact that I'm still a little bit > freaked out about the whole thing, I need this. > > Closing weekend of the 1997 season on the Ocoee was November first and > second, > and I had planned to paddle it for the last time this season on November > first. When I arrived, at something like 2:00, the weather was still > sunny > and warm. I made a fairly quick run because of increasing clouds and > dropping > temperatures, and I was off the river at approximately 3:30. > > I hitched a ride up to the putin, but as our car passed the shoals about > 1/4 > mile below Double Trouble (if memory serves...I don't know the name of > the > shoals and things were a little fast and strange for me to be giving too > much > thought to landmarks), a guy ran out into the road and flagged down our > car. > He said that a guy was hurt in the middle of the river, and asked for a > cell > phone. > > I used to be a volunteer firefighter and First Responder for a department > right > outside Chattanooga, and while I've let my certifications lapse, > sometimes > small help is better than none. So I jumped out of the car, scrambled > down > the rockpile to the riverside, borrowed a boat, and ferried out into to > the > rock ledge in the middle of the shoals. When I got there, a couple of > rescuers were just beginning to work on Mike. One of them, thank God, > was a > doctor...and I'll write more about him in just a second. > > They said that Mike had been ferrying across the shoals and had gotten > flipped...and that while he was underwater he had taken a blow to the > head > which either knocked him unconscious or rendered him otherwise helpless. > If I > remember right, they said he was underwater for sixty seconds or so. > The > doctor reached Mike's boat and tried to flip it upright but was unable > to, and > was also unable to pop Mike's spray skirt. He said that Mike had left > the > grab loop tucked inside. > > So the doctor did the next thing he could think of, which was to unsheath > his > PFD knife and to cut across the lap of the spray skirt. By doing so he > was > able to pop the skirt and get Mike out of the boat, but this was when > things > went wildly wrong...because the doctor cut too deeply and opened a long, > deep > gash high up on the inside of Mike's right thigh. > > And that was pretty much the situation when I first got there...three or > four > people were dragging him out of the water and onto a small rock ledge, > and > they were trying to control the bleeding. > > Mike was responsive when I got there, although it was obvious that he was > confused and in pain. The doctor was holding compression on Mike's leg > wound, > which was generally keeping the bleeding under control, and at his > direction > we made Mike as comfortable as possible with our PFDs and began to > improvise a > tourniquet. I wound up holding pressure on Mike's femoral artery at his > groin > while someone else cut webbing for the tourniquet. We applied the > tourniquet > and continued the femoral pressure and the direct pressure on the wound. > > Although the blood was mixed with water, it didn't seem to be > arterial...it > was pretty dark in color and was mixed with a lot of fluid that looked > typical > of deep tissue injury. The doctor said he didn't think the femoral > artery had > been hit. > > As I held pressure (and then held tension on the tourniquet), I checked > out > Mike's head wound, and it looked like he had slammed his head pretty > well...he > had a lump on his left temple the size of a fifty-cent piece which > projected > perhaps a half-inch and was an ugly shade of purple. It was just > exactly in > that spot which is all too easy to expose if you're letting your chin > strap > ride a little loosely. I checked his pupil dilation, and while his > pupils > seemed wide to me, they also seemed equally dilated. > > While we were working on Mike we kept talking to him...we were telling > him that > he'd be OK, we were saying his name, and we were trying to get him to > talk > back to us. He would occasionally screw up his face in pain. At first > he was > responsive to us...he answered questions, he reached out to hold our > hands, > and he complained of discomfort. But as time wore on (and the numbers > of > paddlers surround us grew), he began slipping. He complained of the > cold, his > tight clothing, and his inability to breathe. "I can't see," he kept > saying. > We tried to sit him up in order to make his breathing easier...I was > sitting > on the rock with my arms around him and his head laid back on my > shoulder...but he only got worse...he quit talking and became mostly > unresponsive to us. > > It was clear to us that we might save Mike from blood loss only to lose > him to > shock, so at the doctor's direction we moved him from the small rock > ledge to > a larger one which was close by. Some of us had to wade through water > to get > there, and we had to be painstakingly careful not to drop Mike, because > he was > a pretty big guy and he was wet and slippery. > > Park rangers were arriving at the road across the river from us as we > were > moving Mike. We got him laid out flat (with legs elevated...I was > holding up > his left one), and while the doctor continued to maintain pressure on > the leg > wound we began to demand blankets, fleece, jackets, and anything else we > could > get to try to keep Mike warm. There wasn't much of anything to use > except > PFDs...everyone was soaked and a cold rain had begun to fall. > > Right about this time a paramedic named Tiger who had been out paddling > joined > us on the rock and went to work. He was a big help. He and the doctor > kept > checking Mike's breathing and pulse. Finally, someone arrived with a > spine > board and a cervical collar, and we got Mike strapped onto the board. > Tiger > put the c-collar on him. > > Mike lapsed into unconsciousness, and the doctor quickly turned > management of > the wound over to a bystander and crouched by Mike's head. "Don't do > this, > Mike...Don't do this..." he repeated. Mike's breathing slowed, and then > stopped, and the doctor and Tiger began artifical respiration and chest > compressions. > > At this point, somebody with a bullhorn on the shore told us that a raft > was at > Double Suck, and that the raft had been directed to hurry to where we > were and > ferry Mike across. > > Mike began to vomit, and the doctor and Tiger were having to stop CPR. > Since > he was on the backboard, it wasn't too difficult to turn him onto his > side so > that the doctor could sweep his airway clear. We had to do this two or > three > times. > > Someone arrived with a rescue basket, which is like a really long, > shallow, > plastic bathtub. We lifted Mike into the rescue basket and strapped him > in > while the doctor and Tiger continued to administer CPR. Right about > then the > raft arrived. As they lined up by the rock, we lifted Mike in, and the > doctor > jumped in and continued chest compressions. I watched from the rock as > the > raft ferried him across the river and as the spectators helped lift the > rescue > basket up the rockpile to the road. Paramedics rushed Mike into the the > back > of the ambulance and immediately began working to try to stabilize him. > > The raft came back across to the rock, and I hitched a ride back over to > the > shore. After I climbed the rockpile, I asked one of the responding > firemen > for some alcohol foam to sterilize my hands with, and then I waited by > the > ambulance. I noticed that the ambulance was rocking back and forth, > which > meant that the paramedics were administering chest compressions inside. > And > although I didn't check my watch, they must have worked on him for > twenty or > more minutes before they took off. > > We stood around on the scene for a while. Lance, some of the other park > rangers, the state troopers, and couple of the paramedics collected some > information. I gave them my name, number, and address. > > The doctor felt like shit. He told me he was mad at himself, and > although the > normal cliches like "You did the best you could", "You did everything > right", > and "That was a terrible scene" were all close at hand, all I could do > was > squeeze his shoulder and shake my head. I watched as he rode away with > one of > the park rangers. > > And so now they're reporting on the news that Mike Reisman died of blood > loss > resulting from a severed femoral artery. > > I don't believe that, although we'll never know for sure. I'm told the > family > has apparently declined to have an autopsy conducted. I think only one > thing > killed Mike...the utter lack of proper equipment to treat shock on an > isolated > scene. We had the training, we had the people, we had (barely) enough > room to > work. But none of that was enough. > > I've seen a lot of people in shock, and they always react differently. > Some > act crazy, some mumble to themselves, some shake, some wander around > like zombies. Some simply go to sleep. > > Like Mike. > > That's the end of this story. > > I'm sorry. > > Ed Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:25:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:25:08 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:25:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:24:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:23:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mb18.mail.aol.com (mb18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.33]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:23:21 -0500 (EST) From: BMannix@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mb18.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-2.0.0) id SAA05143 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:22:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:22:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971104182051_-2009981582@mrin41.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED Re: [CCC] death on the Ocoee Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 5d4a6a1b3ca0344dfdd8556c28e55d23 X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 In a message dated 97-11-04 07:40:06 EST, you write: << I wasn't there -- But I can't in my wildest dreams imagine trying to cut a spray skirt off a paddler in turbulent water with a knife. That is just asking for the type of injury that did occur. >> Well, I can't imagine leaving the patient with his head submerged either. You do what you have to, and sometimes things go wrong. --Brian Mannix Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:17:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:17:16 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:17:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:16:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:14:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mb04.mail.aol.com (mb04.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.53]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:14:08 -0500 (EST) From: Bighoss19@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mb04.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA22923 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:13:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:13:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971105000813_-358263497@mrin46.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: W-EMED Two questions without RIGHT answers. Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: eae454e52c4e6ad0c269181df392d0de X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 Two questions without RIGHT answers. First Responder EMT Paramedic ER MD Fire Chief All arrive at a 2 person serious injury incident at the same time. Who SHOULD in charge? Who Should be doing PT care Can off Site Medical Control "overrule" a Fire Chief (who is at least a First Responder) or vice versa. Example: Fire Chief has air transport en-route can med. con overrule & have Pt. ground transported (note FD is a First Responder level service a "contract" squad provides the ground transport) Please send constructive ideas - As I said I doubt there is a right answer. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:40:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:40:29 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:40:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:39:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:38:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tenforward.com (mail.tenforward.com [206.213.105.2]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:38:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from default [206.213.105.151] by mail.tenforward.com (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A338EBE0114; Tue, 04 Nov 1997 23:41:44 PSTPDT Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971104233600.006ac4fc@tenforward.com> X-Sender: tates@tenforward.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 23:36:00 -0800 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: tates Subject: Re: W-EMED Two questions without RIGHT answers. In-Reply-To: <971105000813_-358263497@mrin46.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 644b4fa57956f695ff1d1f23b5e01f7f X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 This is so dependant on local protocol that the answer isn't likely to mean anything in your area. 1: who is in charge? Scene: Fire chief, she/he is also probably in charge of the extrication depending on the circumstances. Patient Care: Paramedic, here the doctor would be asked to provide eyes and ears for the Medcom in the ER. Unless the MD was willing to sign a statement that he was accepting full responsibility for the patient. (Adding another player) Law Enforcement is usually in charge on-scene with fire doing the extrication and medics providing the patient care. >Can off Site Medical Control "overrule" a Fire Chief (who is at least a >First Responder) or vice versa. If you are talking about extrication then no that would be foolish on their part to try. On the other hand if the ER says to do an rapid extrication including an amputation then that could happen but the point here is that the ER is requesting a certain service not telling the chief how to cut the car apart. Unless the ER is able to reach through the radio and personally make it happen the way they want it can't really force the issue > >Example: Fire Chief has air transport en-route can med. con overrule & have >Pt. ground transported (note FD is a First Responder level service a >"contract" squad provides the ground transport) Transport is a medical decision unless the chief has a really good reason for overruling the ER. But the chief had better have a really good reason and he better be right from the severity of the injury to the availability of the LZ at the ER. The ER is going to rely on their paramedic for a judgement call as to how to transport. > >Please send constructive ideas - >As I said I doubt there is a right answer. This sounds like you have a specific case in mind my opinion is that unless you are dealing with something that is life threatening I would just go with the flow and bump the incident up to my supervisor. This sounds like a problem between all the agencies involved the time to work on this isn't at the scene you need to work out the roles that everyone is going to fill before hand. Hope that helps David Tate Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:56:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:56:37 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:56:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:56:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:55:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgate.fore.com (mailgate.fore.com [169.144.68.6]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:55:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailman.fore.com (mailman.fore.com [169.144.2.12]) by mailgate.fore.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA10327 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:52:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from pophost1.fore.com (pophost1 [169.144.2.9]) by mailman.fore.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00808 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:55:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from katana (katana [169.144.6.150]) by pophost1.fore.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA16700 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:54:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971105105132.00a98cf0@pophost1.fore.com> X-Sender: bsj@pophost1.fore.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 10:51:32 -0500 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: "Brian S. Jazudek" Subject: Re: W-EMED Two questions without RIGHT answers. In-Reply-To: <971105000813_-358263497@mrin46.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 2632cb7059441f168a3d7e1f99c3420d X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Well this is an interesting question since I just finished PA DOT Basic Vehicle Rescue Class this summer and that was always the question, who is in charge? The Rescue team which is usually a Fire Department, the Medics or the Police? Since you scenario does not mention the need for extrication my answers would be the following. 1) Scene safety should reside with the Fire Chief and fire department, this would include hazard control, but patient care should be done by the highest medical trained person, so that would be the ER MD. Although being with the medic crew after finding out there was an ER MD on scene my first question to him would be, "Are you going to take responsibility for these patients?" If the answer was "yes", split your advanced care providers between the two patients and go from there. If the answer was "no", then the approach I would take would be along the lines of, "thank you for your help, could you please move back and give us room to work?" 2)A Fire Chief is NOT in charge of patient care. I would say yes that the Medical command could overrule the Fire Chiefs decision on an Air Evac. Of course all of these headaches can be avoided by having good working relationships with all involved parties, Police, Fire/Rescue, EMS, Med Comm, and so on. Out of curiosity is this a hypothetical scenario or based on a real call? At 12:13 AM 11/5/97 -0500, you wrote: >Two questions without RIGHT answers. > >First Responder >EMT >Paramedic >ER MD >Fire Chief >All arrive at a 2 person serious injury incident at the same time. > >Who SHOULD in charge? Who Should be doing PT care > >Can off Site Medical Control "overrule" a Fire Chief (who is at least a >First Responder) or vice versa. > >Example: Fire Chief has air transport en-route can med. con overrule & have >Pt. ground transported (note FD is a First Responder level service a >"contract" squad provides the ground transport) > >Please send constructive ideas - >As I said I doubt there is a right answer. > >Do not reproduce without author's express permission. >To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" >as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu >Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu > > Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:14:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:14:15 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:14:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:12:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:12:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ecentral.com (ns.ecentral.com [206.64.70.1]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:12:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from Default (ppp125.ecentral.com [206.64.70.125]) by www.ecentral.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10154 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:12:00 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:12:00 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711051612.JAA10154@www.ecentral.com> X-Sender: hmpaul@ecentral.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: "Howard M. Paul" Subject: Re: W-EMED Two questions without RIGHT answers. Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: b4a1aa5c5d5b904880838a3f7d497548 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Poor answer: What do you as a supervisor? After all, *someone* has to serve that role, too. Howard At 11:36 PM 11/4/97 -0800, you wrote: >This sounds like you have a specific case in mind my opinion is that unless >you are dealing with something that is life threatening I would just go >with the flow and bump the incident up to my supervisor. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- H o w a r d M. P a u l VP, Public Affairs Mgr., Colorado SAR Board EMS Director, Alpine Rescue Team, Evergreen, Colo. "If you don't care where you are, you can't be lost." -- anon. ----------------------------- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:37:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:37:46 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:37:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:36:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:35:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mtigwc05.worldnet.att.net (mtigwc05.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.35]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:35:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [12.70.79.48] by mtigwc05.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA12627 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:34:24 +0000 X-Sender: splantz@postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: splantz@worldnet.att.net (Scott H. Plantz, M.D.) Subject: W-EMED On-line Textbook Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:34:24 +0000 Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 8623e0ae20b9c68a122a0862bb032f33 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Emergency Wilderness Physicians, For the last two years we have been developing the technology to write an entire EM textbook on line. That technology is now perfected and being used. Our first text is 50% completed in less than 45 days. At this point we really need people to start donating x-rays and photos of creepy-crawlies as well as interesting patient presentations. A few authors have dropped out. Jon Adler and I could really use your help in completing the text. If interested, go to www.emedicine.com Author/Editor and list topics available. Request topics by contacting Jon Adler at jadler@emedicine.com Thank you for your help. shp Scott H. Plantz, M.D., FAAEM VP, American Academy of Emergency Medicine Asst. Prof. and Research Director Dept. of Emergency Medicine Mt. Sinai Medical Center Ph. 813-367-7763 Fx. 813-367-7764 Em. splantz@worldnet.att.net Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:50:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:49:49 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:49:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:45:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:45:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from machine (Pool-207-205-131-80.ATLN.grid.net [207.205.131.80]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA00615 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:44:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971107034752.0069c7f4@pop.vnet.net> X-Sender: caveman1@pop.vnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 22:47:52 -0500 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: Sam Chewning Subject: Re: W-EMED Re: [CCC] death on the Ocoee Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 9dccc815bb768c7b807213be0f094603 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 At 07:36 AM 11/4/97 -0500, you wrote: >I was wondering if anyone had seen this one yet and had a chance to >evaluate what happened... > >I wasn't there -- But I can't in my wildest dreams imagine trying >to cut a spray skirt off a paddler in turbulent water with a >knife. That is just asking for the type of injury that did >occur. > >Other comments? > >-Mike > >> >> Story copied from RecBoatsPaddle: >> >> Subject: The Death of Mike Reisman on the Ocoee River >> From: gratefuled@aol.com (GratefulEd) >> Date: 1997/11/02 >> Message-ID: <19971102220500.RAA04119@ladder01.news.aol.com> >> Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle >> [More Headers] >> >> This is the story of the death of Mike Reisman (sp?) just below Double >> Trouble >> on the Ocoee on November 1, 1997. Mike please give me a call. Sam Chewning MD 704-892-1738 Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:25:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:25:27 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:25:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:22:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tenforward.com (mail.tenforward.com [206.213.105.2]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:22:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from default [206.213.105.136] by mail.tenforward.com (SMTPD32-4.02c) id AEAD2E9E01AE; Sat, 08 Nov 1997 10:25:49 PSTPDT Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971108102008.006d68f8@tenforward.com> X-Sender: tates@tenforward.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 10:20:08 -0800 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: tates Subject: Re: W-EMED Two questions without RIGHT answers. In-Reply-To: <199711051612.JAA10154@www.ecentral.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 5c525510c189a54a39366b9efab7e269 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 It's not a poor answer. Your first priority is to yourself, next the rescuers, then the patient(s). Nothing that compromises the safety of any of those people should be allowed to continue on an incident. After that you bump your concerns up the chain of command. I would sincerely doubt however that the chief officer on scene would be the same one who would decide mutual aid agreements or to write policy. If anything that happens doesn't compromise safety then it shouldn't be dealt with on-scene, that is what critiques and incident preplans are for. BTW everybody has a supervisor in this case the chain of command could be Firefighter | Chief | Commissioners (Elected officials) | Public (The Electors) The alternative to not adapting to the scenario is a turf war on the scene. THAT IS NOT AN ALTERNATIVE David Tate At 09:12 AM 05/11/1997 -0700, you wrote: >Poor answer: What do you as a supervisor? After all, *someone* has to serve >that role, too. >Howard > >At 11:36 PM 11/4/97 -0800, you wrote: >>This sounds like you have a specific case in mind my opinion is that unless >>you are dealing with something that is life threatening I would just go >>with the flow and bump the incident up to my supervisor. >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >H o w a r d M. P a u l >VP, Public Affairs Mgr., Colorado SAR Board >EMS Director, Alpine Rescue Team, Evergreen, Colo. > >"If you don't care where you are, you can't be lost." -- anon. > ----------------------------- > >Do not reproduce without author's express permission. >To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" >as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu >Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu > > Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:28:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:28:17 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:28:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:26:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:26:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ecentral.com (ns.ecentral.com [206.64.70.1]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 20:26:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from Default (ppp67.ecentral.com [206.64.70.67]) by www.ecentral.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA06481 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:25:53 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:25:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711090125.SAA06481@www.ecentral.com> X-Sender: hmpaul@ecentral.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: "Howard M. Paul" Subject: Re: W-EMED Two questions without RIGHT answers. Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 65269a472ae3db92de7d71cec696aaa4 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 I will reiterate: what do YOU do when you are the supevisor to which this has been bumped??? Put it to an election of the the public? At 10:20 AM 11/8/97 -0800, you wrote: >It's not a poor answer. Your first priority is to yourself, next the >rescuers, then the patient(s). Nothing that compromises the safety of any >of those people should be allowed to continue on an incident. After that >you bump your concerns up the chain of command. I would sincerely doubt >however that the chief officer on scene would be the same one who would >decide mutual aid agreements or to write policy. If anything that happens >doesn't compromise safety then it shouldn't be dealt with on-scene, that is >what critiques and incident preplans are for. > >BTW everybody has a supervisor in this case the chain of command could be >Firefighter | Chief | Commissioners (Elected officials) | Public (The >Electors) > >The alternative to not adapting to the scenario is a turf war on the scene. >THAT IS NOT AN ALTERNATIVE > >David Tate > > >At 09:12 AM 05/11/1997 -0700, you wrote: >>Poor answer: What do you as a supervisor? After all, *someone* has to serve >>that role, too. >>Howard >> >>At 11:36 PM 11/4/97 -0800, you wrote: >>>This sounds like you have a specific case in mind my opinion is that unless >>>you are dealing with something that is life threatening I would just go >>>with the flow and bump the incident up to my supervisor. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>H o w a r d M. P a u l >>VP, Public Affairs Mgr., Colorado SAR Board >>EMS Director, Alpine Rescue Team, Evergreen, Colo. >> >>"If you don't care where you are, you can't be lost." -- anon. >> ----------------------------- >> >>Do not reproduce without author's express permission. >>To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" >>as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu >>Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu >> >> > > >Do not reproduce without author's express permission. >To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" >as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu >Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu > > Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:29:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:29:46 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:29:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:29:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:28:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from rex.isdn.net (root@[198.79.88.2]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:28:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from host2.midsouth.net (host2.midsouth.net [207.65.92.2]) by rex.isdn.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA30803 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:28:48 -0600 Received: from LOCALNAME (207.65.92.106) by host2.midsouth.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 08 Nov 1997 23:33:56 -0600 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ralph A Brigham" Organization: ER-NCRC To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:28:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: W-EMED (Fwd) questions ... X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 60833f18a547e9d85e98edebb4392e6a X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: "Ralph A Brigham" Organization: ER-NCRC To: Bighoss19@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 22:07:04 -0500 Subject: questions ... Cc: rabrigham@midsouth.net Priority: normal Just my 2 pfennig worth; Theoretically - At this scenario, ask the Fire Chief to serve as the Incident Commander. Have the ER MD along with the EMT care for the first patient. Have the Paramedic and the First Responder care for the second patient. In this way, hopefully none of the able care-givers would really feel slighted in being ignored -- HOPEFULLY. In my opine, this sounds like some after the fact skull sessions between agencies, etc. If that is true, hopefully the scene personnel resolved the problem and treated the patients expediously. Ralph A Brigham 931-906-9277 939 S Riverside Dr, Apt H-61 Member: Clarksville TN 37040-3158 NSS,NASAR,ER-NCRC,WMS,NAEMT "SUPPORT PERSONNEL ARE AS IMPORTANT AS THE RESCUERS ON A MISSION." Ralph A Brigham 931-906-9277 939 S Riverside Dr, Apt H-61 Member: Clarksville TN 37040-3158 NSS,NASAR,ER-NCRC,WMS,NAEMT "SUPPORT PERSONNEL ARE AS IMPORTANT AS THE RESCUERS ON A MISSION." Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:54:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:54:37 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:54:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:53:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:52:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.goodnet.com (pop.goodnet.com [207.98.129.100]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:52:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from PC_.goodnet.com (phx-ts10-20.goodnet.com [207.98.132.53]) by pop.goodnet.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA23653 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:52:56 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <346A2814.7BD0@ix.netcom.com> References: Conversation <971105000813_-358263497@mrin46.mail.aol.com> with last message <346A2814.7BD0@ix.netcom.com> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "WEMS News" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Tim Kovacs" Subject: Re: W-EMED Two questions without RIGHT answers. Date: Wed, 12 Nov 97 20:14:14 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: fa43e0ebe9d66bd84cd899eedb55c8c2 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Boy, dangerous ground you tread on. The trend for critical, intelligent thinking seems to be getting lost, but I am impressed with you response. Tim Kovacs, Mountain Rescue Association Paramedic Coordinator Helitak rescue guy Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:09:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:09:25 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:09:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:08:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:06:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:05:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA24842 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:05:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from tfx-us2-06.ix.netcom.com(204.30.67.70) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma024832; Wed Nov 12 16:05:11 1997 Message-ID: <346A2814.7BD0@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:05:08 -0700 From: Charles Stewart X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-NC320 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED Two questions without RIGHT answers. References: <971105000813_-358263497@mrin46.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: f04e1f09bd57b38491b0f59f652510df X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Bighoss19@aol.com wrote: > > Two questions without RIGHT answers. > > First Responder > EMT > Paramedic > ER MD > Fire Chief > All arrive at a 2 person serious injury incident at the same time. > > Who SHOULD in charge? Who Should be doing PT care > > Can off Site Medical Control "overrule" a Fire Chief (who is at least a > First Responder) or vice versa. > > Example: Fire Chief has air transport en-route can med. con overrule & have > Pt. ground transported (note FD is a First Responder level service a > "contract" squad provides the ground transport) > > Please send constructive ideas - > As I said I doubt there is a right answer. Been following this and offer a "radical" idea..... have the person who is best trained for this particular extrication be responsible for the extrication removal of the patient.... and the person who is best trained to provide medical care in THIS environment provide the medical care. since you didn't give us a scenario to go with the patient's you can't make the decision based on the "qualifications" given... For example, a fire chief, say of a sea level Baltimore suburb, may have no, none, zero, zip, nada experience with air evacuation in a Colorado box canyon in summer (with significant density-altitude consideration). If the first responder is a crewchief for the local MAST helicopter detachment.... well I know whose advice means more and will be believed by the pilot.... and I know who I want as the commander for this incident...and it isn't a flatlander. If the emergency physician has had no wilderness, outdoors, or field experience, but the paramedic belongs to El Paso County Mountain Rescue.... well, doctor, please stand aside and let somebody who knows what they are doing assume patient care in the wilderness. If, on the other hand, the emergency physician is the medical advisor to the MAST unit and has had substantial wilderness and incident command experience... then guess who is best suited to be the overall command for this scene. In order to answer the question logically, you have to compare apples with apples.... just saying somebody is a fire chief, EMT, or whatever does not adequately describe qualifications when you are discussing situations that are not within their normal scope of practice. If they are within the normal scope of their care taking care of an auto accident in an urban environment in good weather with adequate response to the scene, this should have been discussed months ago...at a routine EMS-FIRE-Police liason meeting. As my English 101 teacher would say... be more specific. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:58:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:58:00 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:57:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:57:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id GAA24467 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 06:56:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from tfx-us3-26.ix.netcom.com(204.30.67.122) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma024445; Thu Nov 13 06:56:21 1997 Message-ID: <346AF8F2.494F@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:56:18 -0700 From: Charles Stewart X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-NC320 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED Two questions without RIGHT answers. References: Conversation <971105000813_-358263497@mrin46.mail.aol.com> with last message <346A2814.7BD0@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 9d3bf3e5db33097d609eb4eb5c91fb1a X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Be specific... give me the scenario and the qualifications of the people who are responding and we can work out who should be in charge. If the incident is a structural fire and there are two injuries from the fire, then the Fire Chief has spent his/her life training for this... He/She SHOULD be in overall command of the incident. Likewise... if the EMT is a current or former Army airmobile infantry battalion commander, battallion staff officer, or company commander (more "wilderness," helicopter experience and "incident command" experience under hostile conditions than most civilians can possibly imagine).... he or she probably can organize the incident better (more effectively and safely) than most Fire Chiefs who have attended a couple of incident command courses over the last few years and have responded to auto accidents and structural fires for their entire career. If the incident is 20 miles from the roadhead, there is adverse weather, and heavy terrain, then I'm not certain that the "structural" fire chief is truly competent to be an incident commander of THIS incident. They typically have not trained for this scenario, do not have ANY idea of the logistics, hazards to personnel, or the difficulty of what they are asking either pilot or personnel to do. (This is, after all, a major purpose of the WEMSI Wilderness EMT course... to acquaint people with the difficulties of the wilderness incident.) We have seen similar problems in the not so distant past with Fire Department response to hazardous materials incidents... where the "commander" doesn't have a clue what is going to need to be done, what hazards to personnel exist, and what should be done to safely extricate the survivors from the situation. (Personal experience, Rochester Suburbs, Spring 1997) Similar prior failures have led to substantial hazardous materials training for fire chief and similar ranks in most major cities. I certainly don't believe that the EMS command physician, based in the hospital and subject to shift changes, will be able to keep track of the progress of an extended duration rescue and offer anything but "advice." Now this would change if the EMS command physician would relocate to the incident command site, assume responsibility for the medical care of the patient, and settle in for the duration of the incident... but how often does this happen? I'm not trying to "dis" the MD's, EMT's, Paramedics, First Responders, or God forbid, even the Fire Chief... I just don't believe that when you are given a role at street level that you can apply WITHOUT CHANGE OR ADDITIONAL TRAINING that same role beyond the roadhead. If it is a "routine" incident, in the 'burbs, with intact and well established chain of command, then the potential problems should have been solved in routine committee meetings months ago. At the risk of boredom, I would reiterate - have the people who are best qualified for THIS incident be in charge of medical care and overall incident command. Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:42:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:41:52 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:41:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:40:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:39:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ecentral.com (ns.ecentral.com [206.64.70.1]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:39:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from Default (ppp47.ecentral.com [206.64.70.47]) by www.ecentral.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06501 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:39:23 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:39:23 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711131539.IAA06501@www.ecentral.com> X-Sender: hmpaul@ecentral.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: "Howard M. Paul" Subject: Re: W-EMED Two questions without RIGHT answers. Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 92e618300250ce26fce3d9e10d3ae3a5 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 W e l l . . . Chuck, that certainly is a better answer than "I'd bump it up to my supervisor." Howard At 05:56 AM 11/13/97 -0700, you wrote: >Be specific... give me the scenario..... > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- H o w a r d M. P a u l VP, Public Affairs Mgr., Colorado SAR Board EMS Director, Alpine Rescue Team, Evergreen, Colo. "If you don't care where you are, you can't be lost." -- anon. ----------------------------- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:35:35 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:35:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:34:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:33:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin86.mail.aol.com (mrin86.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.196]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:33:06 -0500 (EST) From: Jaymullen@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin86.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id EAA16494 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:32:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:32:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971114043236_-54595357@mrin86.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: W-EMED Re: Wilderness Medicine Fellowship Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 301b00828499e916296463a5d77ef2b3 X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 Anybody out there know about any Wilderness Medicine Fellowships? I'm pretty sure there's one at Stanford, and maybe one in Fresno, CA. Signed, " A EM Doc Who Doesn't Do Just Shift Work" (Jay Mullen, MD Univ of AZ) Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:35:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:34:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:34:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin43.mail.aol.com (mrin43.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.153]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:34:34 -0500 (EST) From: Jaymullen@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin43.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id EAA06626 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:34:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 04:34:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971114043404_1152858747@mrin43.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: W-EMED ART Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 0c03bb163b7c9183ec7407006f6ae671 X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 Hey Howard, Did you get my email of a couple weeks ago? I'm really interested to hear how ART is doing. --Jay Mullen Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:37:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:37:36 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:37:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:37:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:36:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.10]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:36:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from 136.142.57.10.pitt.edu (ehdup-a2-5.rmt.net.pitt.edu [136.142.20.35]) by post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/cispo-2.0.1.7) ID ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:20:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711172020.PAA00747@post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Keith Conover, M.D." To: Tates , wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:20:54 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: W-EMED Medical Incident Report In-reply-to: <199711171736.MAA16425@list.srv.cis.pitt.edu> References: <346A2814.7BD0@ix.netcom.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 465a21cd812edf87870a3f249e94688d X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 On 17 Nov 97 at 9:33, Tates wrote: > I am looking for a medical incident report form based on wilderness > BLS/ALS parameters. Check www.wemsi.org and look at the Patient Record Form that is in an appendix to the WEMSI Course Guide. That's one that WEMSI came up with and has used for a while -- seems to make most people happy. --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:41:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:41:30 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:41:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:41:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:36:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tenforward.com (mail.tenforward.com [206.213.105.2]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:36:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711171736.MAA16425@list.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Received: from default [206.213.105.132] by mail.tenforward.com (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A13D457E00E8; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:39:09 PSTPDT X-Sender: tates@mail.tenforward.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro 4.0 Beta 5 (build 211) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:33:20 -0800 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: Tates Subject: W-EMED Medical Incident Report In-Reply-To: <346A2814.7BD0@ix.netcom.com> References: <971105000813_-358263497@mrin46.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: ad3d7d1861ef7aa1d14929ddbfc32863 X-PMFLAGS: 35127424 0 I am looking for a medical incident report form based on wilderness BLS/ALS parameters. Thanks David Tate Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:26:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:26:09 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:26:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:24:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:22:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin39.mail.aol.com (mrin39.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.149]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:22:29 -0500 (EST) From: Bighoss19@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin39.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA23444 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:21:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:21:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971117142157_460811890@mrin39> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: Re: W-EMED Medical Incident Report Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: c11eff4900828ad1acf0afa4aa014c4a X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 In a message dated 97-11-17 14:15:31 EST, you write: > tates@tenforward.com (Tates) Give me a few days - and I will scan in Solo's Soap Note ect - Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: Mailer-Daemon@mercury.po.com Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:48:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:48:08 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:48:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:47:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from mercury (dns2.po.com [204.178.220.21]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:47:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mem.po.com (Physicians Online SMTP) (localhost) by mercury (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA29748; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:44:28 -0500 Received: from by mem.po.com (Physicians Online SMTP) ; Tue Nov 18 11:44:28 1997 Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu by pion (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA13017; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:05:12 +0500 Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:28:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from newsmail.acsworld.net (host-178-003.acsworld.net [198.113.178.3]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:28:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from acsworld.net ([198.113.178.210]) by newsmail.acsworld.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-12677) with ESMTP id AAA144 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:31:19 -0500 Message-Id: <3470B773.FB201B1D@acsworld.net> Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:30:27 -0500 From: jhill@acsworld.net (James Hill, Jr.) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu" Subject: W-EMED WEMSI WEMT Class Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------086B5975AD2D49F78FD17181" Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: b83fc539087c7a5802906901661de60c X-PMFLAGS: 570950016 0 --------------086B5975AD2D49F78FD17181 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WEMT CLASSES: The WEMSI web site is being updated, but until its completed, I thought I'd pass along the information on the next WEMSI: WEMT, BWR and WCP classes. They will be held in Lancaster Pa. on the following dates: Basic Wilderness Rescue: Lancaster County Chiques Park Day use area. March 13,14,15. Cost $69.00 ($29.00 if also taking WEMT) WEMT : April 3,4,5 & April 17,18,19 at Camp Mack. Cost $299.00 WCP: April 17,18,19 at Camp Mack. Cost $99 For WEMT and WCP, the tuition includes room, board, and class material. For BWR, the tuition includes only class material. For additional information, please see the web site at http://wemsi.org . There you will find all of the answers to your questions!!! If you plan to attend and would like a registration brochure, please contact the course coordinator at. jhill@acsworld.net Thanks, Jim Hill Please feel free to reproduce this message as often as you would like! --------------086B5975AD2D49F78FD17181 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

WEMT CLASSES:
 

The  WEMSI web site is being updated, but until its completed, I  thought I'd pass along the information on the next WEMSI:     WEMT, BWR and WCP  classes.

They will be held in Lancaster Pa. on the following dates:

Basic Wilderness Rescue:  Lancaster County Chiques Park Day use area.
March 13,14,15. Cost $69.00 ($29.00 if also taking WEMT)

WEMT : April 3,4,5 & April 17,18,19 at Camp Mack.  Cost $299.00

WCP:   April 17,18,19 at Camp Mack.   Cost $99

For WEMT and WCP, the tuition includes room, board, and class material. For BWR, the tuition includes only class material.

For additional information, please see the web site at    http://wemsi.org . There you will find all of the answers to your questions!!!

If you plan to attend and would like a  registration brochure, please contact the course coordinator at.

jhill@acsworld.net
 

Thanks,

Jim Hill
 

Please feel free to reproduce this message as often as you would like! --------------086B5975AD2D49F78FD17181-- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu ------------ Message Undeliverable! ------------ -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:43:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:43:12 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:43:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:41:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:40:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.43]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:40:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from 136.142.57.10.pitt.edu (ehdup-r3-5.rmt.net.pitt.edu [136.142.22.155]) by post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/cispo-2.0.1.7) ID for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:36:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711180336.WAA05576@post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Keith Conover, M.D." To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:36:15 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: W-EMED WMS PETSAC X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 47f6abb41ed458126e1da1e04fb12304 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 The minutes of the last WMS PETSAC meeting are much too long to post here. If you _really_ want to see them, contact the WMS: Wilderness Medical Society P.O. Box 2463 Indianapolis, IN 46206 1-317-631-1745 http://www.a1.com/wms/ email: "Wilderness Medical Society" But here is the cover letter, that I think tells you what you need to know: November 5, 1997 Dear WMS Members and Friends, Please find enclosed the minutes from the PETSAC meeting held at the WMS Annual Conference in Sun Valley. I also want to update you on the results of the WMS Board meetings and the open forum as they pertain to pre-hospital wilderness medical education issues. PETSAC met on Monday, August 4, and discussed the current status of the curriculum work, as well as the mission, goals and future plans of the committee. In their meeting, PETSAC developed and made a recommendation to the WMS Board about future work. That recommendation can be found in the minutes of the PETSAC meeting. (pag The WMS Board discussed the recommendation at length, and adopted the following plan based on those recommendations. 1. The PETSAC (committee) should be re-configured for future work as defined by the Board. 2. WMS, with input from wilderness medical educators, will complete the curriculum project by developing a "recommended course content" for Wilderness First Responder. 3. A one day conference will be held in conjunction with the 1998 WMS Annual Meeting which will explore critical issues of wilderness medical education. The proposal was then presented for feedback at the PETSAC Open Forum held on Tuesday. After listening to feedback at the open forum, the WMS Board reconfirmed its commitment to these three steps, at its Wednesday Board meeting. Since that time Dr. Otten, WMS President, has moved to implement the first two steps by: 1. Acknowledging and thanking PETSAC for the initial work they have done and dissolving the committee. 2. Appointing Linda Lindsey, RN, as the chair of the Curriculum Writing Task Force. She is currently discussing and developing a strategy for configuring the committee. The specific task of this committee will be to develop a "recommended course content" for Wilderness First Responder. As a task force this committee will be dissolved when the task is complete. Dr. Anne Dickison, as Annual Meeting Program Chair, is responsible for the colloquium that will explore critical issues of wilderness medical education. This concept has been under development by the 1998 Program Committee since it was first suggested by the Liaison Committee as a way to bring related organizations together. It will be a great opportunity to receive information on standardization and accreditation and collectively discuss their viability and feasibility. We hope you will participate and contribute. OVER If any of you would like to contribute to these two projects please contact either Linda or Anne respectively. Contact information is listed below. If in the future you would like to discuss WMS's work and role in pre-hospital wilderness medicine in general, please direct your ideas and suggestions to Dr. Otten as President of the WMS Board. It is the role of the WMS Board to clarify WMS's mission in this area and approve the work of all WMS committees. We will keep you updated on the progress of the Curriculum Writing Task Force through information provided in the WMS newsletter, Wilderness Medicine Letter. Details and registration information for the colloquium, to be held as part of the 1998 Annual Meeting in Lake Placid, will be coming your way in February. Edward (Mel) Otten, MD Linda B. Lindsey, RN Anne E. Dickison, MD President, WMS Chair: Curriculum Chair: 108 Annual Meeting 5533 Harrison Ave. Writing Task Force 1616 N.W. 16th Drive Cincinnati, OH 45248 20 Lewis Dr. Gainesville, FL 513-558-8094 Lander, WY 82520 352-371-1610 513-558-5791 Fax 307-332-6824 352-372-6052 Fax Edward.otten@UC.edu 307-332-3631 Fax Adickison@aol.com lbl@nols.edu We hope to see you at future WMS activities and events and welcome your continued involvement in the Society. Sincerely, David VanDerWege Deputy Executive Director Wilderness Medical Society --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:43:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:43:28 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:43:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:43:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:42:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tenforward.com (mail.tenforward.com [206.213.105.2]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:40:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from default [206.213.105.110] by mail.tenforward.com (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A1C778C300CC; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:43:19 PSTPDT Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971118103731.006b70d8@tenforward.com> X-Sender: tates@tenforward.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:37:31 -0800 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: The Tates Subject: Re: W-EMED Medical Incident Report In-Reply-To: <199711172020.PAA00747@post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu> References: <199711171736.MAA16425@list.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <346A2814.7BD0@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 24714119f2fb3c5687f79e40ff212721 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Thanks Keith; I had wandered all over the place looking for it after I noticed the reference in the one of the other documents. Just didn't get the right place Thanks again David Tate At 03:20 PM 17/11/1997 +0000, you wrote: >On 17 Nov 97 at 9:33, Tates wrote: > >> I am looking for a medical incident report form based on wilderness >> BLS/ALS parameters. > >Check www.wemsi.org and look at the Patient Record Form that is in an >appendix to the WEMSI Course Guide. That's one that WEMSI came up >with and has used for a while -- seems to make most people happy. > > >--Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP > http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover >Do not reproduce without author's express permission. >To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" >as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu >Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu > > Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:47:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:47:03 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:47:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:43:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:41:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tenforward.com (mail.tenforward.com [206.213.105.2]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:41:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from default [206.213.105.110] by mail.tenforward.com (SMTPD32-4.02c) id A20B950300D0; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:44:27 PSTPDT Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971118103839.006c1210@tenforward.com> X-Sender: tates@tenforward.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:38:39 -0800 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: The Tates Subject: Re: W-EMED Medical Incident Report In-Reply-To: <971117142157_460811890@mrin39> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 220b65c9a48d70f74461cdb2df3665ca X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Thank you! David Tate At 02:21 PM 17/11/1997 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-11-17 14:15:31 EST, you write: > >> tates@tenforward.com (Tates) >Give me a few days - and I will scan in Solo's Soap Note ect - >Do not reproduce without author's express permission. >To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" >as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu >Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu > > Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:38:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:38:28 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:38:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:38:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:34:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ecentral.com (ns.ecentral.com [206.64.70.1]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:34:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from Default (ppp59.ecentral.com [206.64.70.59]) by www.ecentral.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02969; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:33:16 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:33:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711191733.KAA02969@www.ecentral.com> X-Sender: hmpaul@ecentral.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: csrb@rmsd.comm, mra@altadena.net, rockymra@smoky.exabyte.com, sar-l@islandnet.com, wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: "Howard M. Paul" Subject: W-EMED EMS charting: summary as promised Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: da39db409430fab69bfd89f4fa952ae9 To all on the Colorado SAR- CSRB Listserver, MRA National Listserver, MRA-Rky Mtn Reg. Listserver, SAR-L list, Wilderness Med-L that contributed mnemonics for charting: here is the summary I promised you. Unfortunately, not very many folks sent me examples of alternative formats to use when writing a complete patient trip report. Many sent a mnemonic for a *portion* of the report, such as: AVPU for level of consciousness, SAMPLE for medical history, HEENT for head to toe assessment. OPQRST for pain Thanks to all who took time to write. Summary of others available of which I am aware: C Chief complaint H History (of event) E Exam (findings) A Action (taken) T Time for transport Note, I learned this as a format for an ambulance's radio report. C Chief complaint H History (of event) A Assessment R Rx (treatment) T Transport P Paged to O On Arrival L LOC C Chief complaint A Assessment T Treatment and transport C Chief complaint H History E Exam T Transport S Subjective (symptoms) O Objective (signs) A Assessment (Impressions) P Plan (treatment) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- H o w a r d M. P a u l VP, Public Affairs Mgr., Colorado SAR Board EMS Director, Alpine Rescue Team, Evergreen, Colo. "If you don't care where you are, you can't be lost." -- anon. ----------------------------- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:05:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:04:46 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:04:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:03:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:00:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.10]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:00:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from 136.142.57.10.pitt.edu (ehdup-r1-14.rmt.net.pitt.edu [136.142.22.124]) by post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/cispo-2.0.1.7) ID ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:55:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711250155.UAA09155@post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Keith Conover, M.D." To: sar-l@islandnet.com, wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:55:43 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: W-EMED "Lat/Long Measuring Stick" CC: asrc-field@virginia.edu, Art Dodds X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 803450a97abf9095eac57292e02dce4c "Latitude and Longitude Measuring Stick" This is something Art Dodds, of ASRC/MRA/NCRC/FAA fame, sent me. It is a clear plastic ruler designed for measuring latitude and longitude on a topo or sectional map. There is no copyright (I think the company gives them away as freebies) so I scanned the tick (571,431 bytes) and the instructions (197,443 bytes). I've included all their advertising so I doubt they'll mind . If you print the "stick" on a laser transparency, you can cut it out, fold it over and keep it in your pocket in the field. You'll ed to have lat/long lines drawn on your topo maps, but that shouldn't be too hard to do ahead of time. You can find them on my home pages via your web browser, or just enter http://www.pitt.edu/~ftp to get a directory and download them. Hope others find them useful. --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:26:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:26:15 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:26:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:26:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:22:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.orst.edu (mail.ORST.EDU [128.193.4.4]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:22:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from gateway-5.nws.orst.edu (gateway-5.nws.orst.edu [128.193.4.46]) by mail.orst.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21929; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:22:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from ccMail by gateway-5.nws.orst.edu (IMA Internet Exchange 2.12 Enterprise) id 0072D650; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:21:07 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:17:06 -0800 Message-ID: <0072D650.3116@ccmail.orst.edu> From: leachs@ccmail.orst.edu (Susan Leach) Subject: W-EMED Re: "Lat/Long Measuring Stick" To: sar-l@islandnet.com, wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu, "Keith Conover; M.D." Cc: asrc-field@virginia.edu, Art Dodds Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 555ee67d8e834bb99e33d2d0ba805f5a Keith, Thanks for the info. This sounds like a real practical bit tool. Do you know of a place to find UTM grids? We have one for 7.5 minute maps (1:24, I believe), but none for other size maps. Susan Leach ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: "Lat/Long Measuring Stick" Author: "Keith Conover; M.D." at Internet_Gateway Date: 11/24/97 8:55 PM "Latitude and Longitude Measuring Stick" This is something Art Dodds, of ASRC/MRA/NCRC/FAA fame, sent me. It is a clear plastic ruler designed for measuring latitude and longitude on a topo or sectional map. There is no copyright (I think the company gives them away as freebies) so I scanned the tick (571,431 bytes) and the instructions (197,443 bytes). I've included all their advertising so I doubt they'll mind . If you print the "stick" on a laser transparency, you can cut it out, fold it over and keep it in your pocket in the field. You'll ed to have lat/long lines drawn on your topo maps, but that shouldn't be too hard to do ahead of time. You can find them on my home pages via your web browser, or just enter http://www.pitt.edu/~ftp to get a directory and download them. Hope others find them useful. --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover ========================================================================== SAR-L Search and Rescue discussion list. For unsubscribe information-email to sar-l-request@islandnet.com with the word 'help' in the subject field. ========================================================================== Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:36:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:36:44 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:36:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:35:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:34:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:34:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from decastro.pacificnet.net (pm3b-18.pacificnet.net [207.171.18.67]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA04467; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:33:56 -0800 (PST) env-from (decastro@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971125093321.006d597c@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: decastro@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:33:27 -0800 To: sar-l@islandnet.com, sar-l@islandnet.com, wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu, "Keith Conover; M.D." From: Rick De Castro Subject: W-EMED Re: "Lat/Long Measuring Stick" Cc: asrc-field@virginia.edu, Art Dodds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 0c39b4beba6a0272f54a64c58850a537 Map grid readers are available from: http://www.basarc.org/ look for map tools These are GREAT! and having them on line is a real service. You can print them onto transparency material for copiers (on a laser printer) then laminate them - excellent. At 09:17 AM 11/25/97 -0800, Susan Leach wrote: > Keith, > > Thanks for the info. This sounds like a real practical bit tool. > > Do you know of a place to find UTM grids? We have one for 7.5 minute > maps (1:24, I believe), but none for other size maps. > > Susan Leach > > >______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ >Subject: "Lat/Long Measuring Stick" >Author: "Keith Conover; M.D." at Internet_Gateway >Date: 11/24/97 8:55 PM > > >"Latitude and Longitude Measuring Stick" > >This is something Art Dodds, of ASRC/MRA/NCRC/FAA fame, sent me. It >is a clear plastic ruler designed for measuring latitude and >longitude on a topo or sectional map. There is no copyright (I think >the company gives them away as freebies) so I scanned the tick >(571,431 bytes) and the instructions (197,443 bytes). I've included >all their advertising so I doubt they'll mind . If you print the >"stick" on a laser transparency, you can cut it out, fold it over and >keep it in your pocket in the field. You'll ed to have lat/long lines >drawn on your topo maps, but that shouldn't be too hard to do ahead >of time. > >You can find them on my home pages via your web browser, or just >enter > >http://www.pitt.edu/~ftp > >to get a directory and download them. > >Hope others find them useful. > >--Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP > http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover > >========================================================================== >SAR-L Search and Rescue discussion list. For unsubscribe information-email >to sar-l-request@islandnet.com with the word 'help' in the subject field. >========================================================================== > > >========================================================================== >SAR-L Search and Rescue discussion list. For unsubscribe information-email >to sar-l-request@islandnet.com with the word 'help' in the subject field. >========================================================================== > > ============================================================================== decastro@pacificnet.net Warning: I am a trained professional. No, Really! Rick N6RCX NREMT SAR Tech Do Not try this yourself - it could get ugly...... Richard A. De Castro - To those who have defended it, Freedom has a flavor decastro@netcom.com the Protected will never enjoy. = = DON'T TREAD ON ME = = ============================================================================= Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:00:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:00:28 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:00:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:59:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:58:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.43]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:58:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from 136.142.57.10.pitt.edu (ehdup-b3-8.rmt.net.pitt.edu [136.142.20.118]) by post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/cispo-2.0.1.7) ID ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:53:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711270253.VAA07196@post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Keith Conover, M.D." To: JSilver374@aol.com, wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:53:45 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: W-EMED Nat'l Safety Council/WMS WFA text In-reply-to: <971126191055_222025818@mrin54.mail.aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 42a2e3017641c57f1475796a92ef3a31 On 26 Nov 97 at 19:10, JSilver374@aol.com wrote: > Just got my copy of the new Wilderness First Aid book put out by the > NSC. I haven't had it for more than a few hours but it looks very > comprehensive. > > Does anyone know if the NSC is planning a course around the book? Yes, indeed they are. --Keith Conover, M.D., FACEP http://www.pitt.edu/~kconover Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:13:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:13:10 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:13:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:12:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:11:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin54.mail.aol.com (mrin54.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.164]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:11:25 -0500 (EST) From: JSilver374@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin54.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id TAA26015 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:10:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:10:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971126191055_222025818@mrin54.mail.aol.com> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: W-EMED Nat'l Safety Council/WMS WFA text Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 31a7557ccbe1ceb44a1675ee01c42106 X-PMFLAGS: 34603136 0 Hi all, Just got my copy of the new Wilderness First Aid book put out by the NSC. I haven't had it for more than a few hours but it looks very comprehensive. Does anyone know if the NSC is planning a course around the book? Thanks, Jonathan Silver, WEMT Highland Park, NJ Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.24]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:52:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc02.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:52:22 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:52:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:50:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:48:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from naps.uwindsor.ca (dns.uwindsor.ca [137.207.232.1]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with SMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:48:38 -0500 (EST) Received: tid MAA10602; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:31:34 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: naps: Host server.campus.uwindsor.ca claimed to be server.uwindsor.ca Received: from [137.207.2.13] (c1s0m2.student.uwindsor.ca [137.207.2.13]) by server.uwindsor.ca (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA02063 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:31:25 -0500 X-Sender: pirie1@server.uwindsor.ca (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199712140117.UAA20056@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:30:05 -0500 To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu From: "Steven D. Pirie" Subject: W-EMED Equipment Information Request. Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 141229389a36e72a76ea71d94125d3f2 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Hi all, I was wondering if any of you know where to get "Sting Stop"? (0.11% benzalkonium, with some other OTC topicals) I have a little bottle (5.75cc) that is almost depleted due to a little mishap when the Company decided to set down and have dinner in tall grass that was infested with wasps not too long ago. I have seen the a product called Sting Ease (benzocaine 20%, Menthol 1%, and isopropyl alcohol) but it only comes in swabs (which at 0.6cc per swab are more bulky then the little 5.75cc bottle). Also, while I have your captive attention (?) does anyone know where to get tincture of benzoin in individual foil type packages? I have a bottle right now, but it is rather bulky to carry. (was good in the old days when I needed a lot because the therapeutic milieu for blisters on a forced march as a little tincture injection, but they don't alow it any more in the Canadian Army - only in the British). And lastly, are any of you carrying dental gear (for emergency repairs) in your wilderness medical bags? If you what? Just interested... Thanks in advance. Steven ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- OCdt Steven D. Pirie, BScN(c) Nursing Officer (Land) University of Windsor Canadian Forces Medical Service ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.39]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:07:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc03.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:07:14 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:07:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:13:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:10:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin54.mail.aol.com (mrin54.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.164]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:10:30 -0500 (EST) From: ALASKANEWF@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin54.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA01006 for wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:10:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:10:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971217140959_-1102744378@mrin54> To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Subject: W-EMED Contacts in Pittsburg Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 6ed01fe7f1ccf21675d39bd74da12fa8 X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 All, I am a SAR helicopter pilot with the Coast Guard in Kodiak Alaska and will be attending Critical Incident training in Pittsburg in January. Are there any contacts (medevac, remote rescue, canine rescue, etc) in Pittsburg, Pa. that I can get with and share experiences? I don't get out much but am always looking to find new techniques and ideas. Please respond to ALASKANEWF@aol.com Thanks, Lt Bill Kupchin Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End -- Return-Path: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Received: from post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.25]) by pop.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/cispop-1.6.1.5) ID ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:39:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by post-ofc01.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cispo-7.0.1.2) ID ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:39:39 -0500 (EST) Received: via switchmail; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:39:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from list.srv.cis.pitt.edu via qmail ID ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:37:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:35:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.goodnet.com (pop.goodnet.com [207.98.129.100]) by list.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.7/8.8.7/cisls-7.0.1.6) ID for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:35:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from PC_.goodnet.com (phx-ts19-16.goodnet.com [207.98.133.81]) by pop.goodnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id TAA06674 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:36:15 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <971217140959_-1102744378@mrin54> References: Conversation <971217140959_-1102744378@mrin54> with last message <971217140959_-1102744378@mrin54> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "WEMS News" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Tim Kovacs" Subject: Re: W-EMED Contacts in Pittsburg Date: Thu, 18 Dec 97 18:53:12 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu X-UIDL: 0124bba30c9b8ea4796f75275a20eb01 X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 Be glad to keep you in the loop of the Mountain rescue Association. Alaska Army Warfare center RSQ is an ex officio member unit ofthe MRA up there. Run into them at all? We've been lately discussing cable hoists, external loads, helirappel and failures. Been hearing lately about tail booms coming off of 407s. I live in Phoenix, Not a pilot, but am SAR Crew (Mountain rescue), doing work in 206L3s and 500s, with a 407 coming. You might check out the MRA web site, although it is very modest. www.mra.org Best wishes & Blue Skies Tim Kovacs tkovacs@goodnet.com Do not reproduce without author's express permission. To unsubscribe, send the text "unsubscribe wilderness-emergency-medicine" as the body of a message (no subject) To: Majordomo@list.pitt.edu Submissions To: wilderness-emergency-medicine@list.pitt.edu -- End --